Do you think that God could have created the big bang?

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lau
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17 Sep 2008, 7:48 pm

slowmutant wrote:
God is omnipotent and all-knowing, all-seeing, so there wouldn't be anything He couldn't predict. God must exist outside of space & time, the universe and all the other verses therein,
where He can observe past, present, and future as one.
How very deterministic of you. You have just made the perfect argument for the irrelevance of any such entity.

slowmutant wrote:
"I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End," God said.

This quote would suggest that God is bigger than space, longer than time.
No. It would imply that he was only the boundary conditions. (Actually, quite a powerful thing, mathematically, in itself, but considerably smaller than space, and of zero extent in time.)


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slowmutant
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17 Sep 2008, 7:51 pm

Is God your area of speciality, professor?



lau
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17 Sep 2008, 8:16 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Is God your area of speciality, professor?

No. I tend to stick with reality.


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17 Sep 2008, 8:49 pm

This about all I need to know about God,

Douglas Adams, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy wrote:
"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You do exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."



DNForrest
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17 Sep 2008, 9:01 pm

spudnik wrote:
This about all I need to know about God,
Douglas Adams, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy wrote:
"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You do exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."


One of my favorite quotes from that glorious book.



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17 Sep 2008, 9:21 pm

You realize that's just Douglas Adams talking.



DeaconBlues
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17 Sep 2008, 11:22 pm

Don't forget the rest of that quote:

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that white is black and promptly gets himself killed in the next zebra crossing.

:)


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Psimulus
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18 Sep 2008, 1:25 pm

God is the Universe.



slowmutant
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18 Sep 2008, 1:28 pm

God is the universe, but He also created the universe. He is in, through, and behind all things. God is truly infinite.



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18 Sep 2008, 1:32 pm

He, she, it. I agree that the Universe is polyfurcating and self replicating.



AspE
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18 Sep 2008, 1:56 pm

Quote:
God is omnipotent and all-knowing, all-seeing, so there wouldn't be anything He couldn't predict. God must exist outside of space & time, the universe and all the other verses therein,
where He can observe past, present, and future as one.


The uncertainty principle would seem to contradict the notion that God could predict everything, also the idea that there is free will rather than complete determinism. The qualities ascribed to God are self-contradictory anyway. My response was the one that science would describe. Religions would say something else.

If you believe in Religion, then yes, anything could happen, God could make the Big Bang.
If you believe in Science, then some things are ruled out as rational explanations.



slowmutant
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18 Sep 2008, 3:42 pm

Both science and religion fall short of what God must actually be.



khelben1979
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19 Sep 2008, 1:31 pm

patrick6 wrote:
Are there any Christians out there who believe that God created the big bang?


I'm an atheist, so that answers the question for my part.



Nerevar
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19 Sep 2008, 9:04 pm

If you limit everything to having cause and effect then by infinite regression something must have caused god to exist as well, so God is just part of the chain. God suddenly appearing with no cause is just as inexplicable as the Universe suddenly appearing with no cause. Then if things don't have to be cause and effect (whatever that means), it doesn't matter because the unvierse doesn't need a cause. If you look at the cause and effect from another angle you see what I mean. Do time backwards: (reverse all the charges and spins on all particles as well to make it scientifically viable apparently - that way chemistry works properly) and you have an equally valid universe but with a sudden stop x billion years in the future which seems a bit odd. Something caused it to end, but once it has ended itself (perfect cancellation?) nobody worries about what it causes because it doesn't cause anything. So when time goes forward it is just as wierd, and thinking the same way leads to the effect (beginning of universe) not being caused by anything.

Otherwise, whether or not it could ever be scientifically investigated, if the universe is part of a larger system, which in turn is part of a larger system, which in turn... ad infinitum, with no beginning and no end no matter which way you measure it, then there is no longer the problem of things not causing or being caused. Everything has a reason and a consequence, but go in any direction of that argument and you never get to an end hence no need for god.

One theory I heard of is that antiparticles are particles travelling backwards in time (which explains the charge reverse etc. and also why when they come together they dissapear - the electron just decided to go change time direction and carry on away from the collision; in our perspective becoming a "seperate" antielectron heading towards the collision.). When you think about it, the entire universe could just be one particle going around in some motion in spacetime, occasionally swapping from forwards-time to backwards-time and repeatedly coming back to meet itself; it has looped through our "time" infinite times making up every particle in the universe. So if you look at spacetime, the entire universe is just a really long string (motion-path of this one particle) - sounds wierd, but this string has no end or beginning, no one can have created it because that would contradict it's infinite length. Similarly no-one can have destroyed it. This is just to illustrate my point.

Personally, I think, no matter what kind of universe you've got (with a sense of time the same as ours); so long as it doesn't end up repeating itself then it seems obvious that eventually any object you define within it will come to an end, but by an extension of this logic, every object that isn't in it will come to a beginning. Why? Because the "state of an object existing" and the "state of an object not-existing" are both unstable states of this universe. So maybe all existence is like this: something can last for a long time but eventually it ends, "nothing" can also last for a long time, but eventually that ends as well.



slowmutant
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19 Sep 2008, 9:06 pm

DNForrest wrote:
spudnik wrote:
This about all I need to know about God,
Douglas Adams, Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy wrote:
"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You do exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."


One of my favorite quotes from that glorious book.


This book is your Bible, is it? Your testament?



DNForrest
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19 Sep 2008, 9:26 pm

Nah, it's just my favorite book of comedy. I use the word glorious to describe everything from tacos to a local meth-addict blowing off his tricep when he decided to scratch his arm with the front sight of a rifle.