Page 2 of 3 [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

07 Jul 2009, 7:50 pm

Tollorin wrote:
Ichinin wrote:
Well, in theory, if you could predict the path of a funnel with 100% accuracy, it would be possible to destroy the funnels cohesion with a large explosion, i.e. a low yield nuclear explosion.

Well, could you explain me HOW the explosion will stop the tornado? I want to know...


It wouldn't.

ruveyn



number5
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,691
Location: sunny philadelphia

07 Jul 2009, 9:06 pm

The tornado only exists within the supercell cloud formation (about 60,000 ft. or so) so a nuclear blast, in theory, could consume the entire tornado and be powerful enough to overtake it. Of course timing would have to be perfect and I really hope that no one out there is actually going to attempt it. It would kind of be like jumping into a tub of acid to get rid of a patch of eczema.



showman616
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 8 Feb 2009
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 170
Location: Washington DC, USA

13 Oct 2009, 8:42 pm

Explosions wouldnt work.

The tornado would just reform right after the blast.

A tornado is a low air pressure zone.

The only way to stop it would be to have a huge mountain of frozen air at hand.

Put the mountain in the tornado's path.

As the twister aproaches the mountain will start to boil off and turn into gaseous air. This surplus air will bolt violently right into the tornado.
This will quickly raise the tornado's core air pressure- and instantly reduce the pressure GRADIENT with the surrounding air. Thus instandtly reducing- and finally eliminating- the violent winds. The twister would then just dissappate.



Paddy789
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 222

14 Oct 2009, 1:54 am

Make another tornado of equal size and speed, but make it rotate the opposite direction. Make it smash into the original and the rotation differences would make it cancel out and stop.



Friskeygirl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Jun 2009
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,865

14 Oct 2009, 2:10 am

There is alot of energy in a super cell, with massive convection currents, that have cold and hot areas that would need to be adjusted to prevent a tornado from forming.
I highly doubt we have the technical know how to accomplish weather control on this scale, about all they can do is seed super cells to make the hail smaller.
Maybe in the future they may be able to drain off heat energy off a super cell using some sort of un-thought of particle beam, but that is in the realm of science fiction.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Oct 2009, 2:49 am

Stop the earth from rotating. Then eliminate the latent heat of water changing state from a gas to a liquid.

All windstorms originate with the Coriolis effect. Major storms are maintained at sea by the latent heat of water vapor condensation.

ruveyn



number5
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,691
Location: sunny philadelphia

14 Oct 2009, 8:26 pm

If we stopped the earth from rotating, tornadoes would be the least of our worries. Coriolis explains why we have easterlies and westerlies, but tornadoes form on a more microscopic scale, relatively of course. That's why toilets don't only flush counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere. Temperature doesn't have a lot to do with it either, other than the initial formation of the supercell. The main ingredient that starts rotation is upper level wind shear. It's all about vorticity. Too much shear can rip apart a storm and too little shear will often allow for a very aggressive storm in terms of precip and hail, but little or no rotation will be present. I suppose if we could control the jet stream...



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Oct 2009, 5:11 am

number5 wrote:
If we stopped the earth from rotating, tornadoes would be the least of our worries. Coriolis explains why we have easterlies and westerlies, but tornadoes form on a more microscopic scale, relatively of course. That's why toilets don't only flush counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere. Temperature doesn't have a lot to do with it either, other than the initial formation of the supercell. The main ingredient that starts rotation is upper level wind shear. It's all about vorticity. Too much shear can rip apart a storm and too little shear will often allow for a very aggressive storm in terms of precip and hail, but little or no rotation will be present. I suppose if we could control the jet stream...


The Coriolis effect is not shear. It is an effect that will happen in any rotating frame of reference. It is a consequence of inertia.

ruveyn



number5
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,691
Location: sunny philadelphia

15 Oct 2009, 12:21 pm

ruveyn wrote:
number5 wrote:
If we stopped the earth from rotating, tornadoes would be the least of our worries. Coriolis explains why we have easterlies and westerlies, but tornadoes form on a more microscopic scale, relatively of course. That's why toilets don't only flush counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere. Temperature doesn't have a lot to do with it either, other than the initial formation of the supercell. The main ingredient that starts rotation is upper level wind shear. It's all about vorticity. Too much shear can rip apart a storm and too little shear will often allow for a very aggressive storm in terms of precip and hail, but little or no rotation will be present. I suppose if we could control the jet stream...


The Coriolis effect is not shear. It is an effect that will happen in any rotating frame of reference. It is a consequence of inertia.

ruveyn


The Coriolis effect is responsible for the way the wind blows on our rotating earth on the large scale. It is why winds blow counterclockwise and inward towards low pressure (in the NH) and clockwise and outward away from high pressure (NH). It is why we have easterlies at the equator and westerlies at our latitude. It's affects become much more minimal on a small scale, particularly when when the velocity of winds become great. This is when wind shear, the change of wind direction with height, becomes a much more significant factor with respect to storms.



ViperaAspis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,083
Location: Portland, OR

15 Oct 2009, 1:29 pm

Here, just to stop the brewing argument before you guys get going ;):

From Webster's:

Coriolis force
One entry found.

Main Entry: Coriolis force
Function: noun
Etymology: Gaspard G. Coriolis †1843 French civil engineer
Date: 1923
: an apparent force that as a result of the earth's rotation deflects moving objects (as projectiles or air currents) to the right in the northern hemisphere and to the left in the southern hemisphere

So ... both of you gents are a bit off. Coriolis force is indeed a rotation based definition (#5 is wrong about this being shear), but it is relating to the Earth's rotation (Ruveyn is wrong about it applying to any rotating frame of reference).


_________________
Who am I? This guy! http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt97863.html


showman616
Snowy Owl
Snowy Owl

User avatar

Joined: 8 Feb 2009
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 170
Location: Washington DC, USA

15 Oct 2009, 7:18 pm

It aint that complicated.

IF the earth didnt spin and you shot a rocker due north it would land right were you aiimed it.
Since the earth spins west to east the rocket will hit a point to the west of where you aimed it. Thats the correollis effect.

IF the earth didnt spin the tropic tade winds in the northern hemsphere would blow straight south (ie be 'northerlies_, the temperate zone winds would blow straight north (ie be southerlies),and the artic winds would be northerlies.

But because of the 'corriollis effect" the trade winds, and the artic winds are both easterlies, and the winds in the temperate zone are westerlies.

According to urban legend water draining in a bath tube is effected the same way- and so are tornadoes and hurricanes- but i think all of those things much to local to be effected by the correollis effect. But more importantly storms are certainly not CAUSED by the correollis effect. they are caused by pressure gradients due to the uneven heating of earths surface and are exacertbated by humidity.



number5
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,691
Location: sunny philadelphia

15 Oct 2009, 7:53 pm

ViperaAspis wrote:
Here, just to stop the brewing argument before you guys get going ;):

From Webster's:

Coriolis force
One entry found.

Main Entry: Coriolis force
Function: noun
Etymology: Gaspard G. Coriolis †1843 French civil engineer
Date: 1923
: an apparent force that as a result of the earth's rotation deflects moving objects (as projectiles or air currents) to the right in the northern hemisphere and to the left in the southern hemisphere

So ... both of you gents are a bit off. Coriolis force is indeed a rotation based definition (#5 is wrong about this being shear), but it is relating to the Earth's rotation (Ruveyn is wrong about it applying to any rotating frame of reference).


I never said the Coriolis effect was responsible for wind shear, but rather that wind shear is responsible for tornadoes.



number5
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,691
Location: sunny philadelphia

15 Oct 2009, 8:14 pm

showman616 wrote:
It aint that complicated.

IF the earth didnt spin and you shot a rocker due north it would land right were you aiimed it.
Since the earth spins west to east the rocket will hit a point to the west of where you aimed it. Thats the correollis effect.

IF the earth didnt spin the tropic tade winds in the northern hemsphere would blow straight south (ie be 'northerlies_, the temperate zone winds would blow straight north (ie be southerlies),and the artic winds would be northerlies.

But because of the 'corriollis effect" the trade winds, and the artic winds are both easterlies, and the winds in the temperate zone are westerlies.

According to urban legend water draining in a bath tube is effected the same way- and so are tornadoes and hurricanes- but i think all of those things much to local to be effected by the correollis effect. But more importantly storms are certainly not CAUSED by the correollis effect. they are caused by pressure gradients due to the uneven heating of earths surface and are exacertbated by humidity.


This is exactly what I was saying. Water draining is NOT affected by Coriolis because Coriolis is weak on a small scale relative to the force of the draining water. The Coriolis effect is usually omitted in supercell calculations. The stuff about pressure gradients, while a bit over simplified, is essentially the idea of storm formation. Tornado formation, on the other hand, is primarily a function of wind shear. When meteorologists are forecasting severe weather, the first data they look at is usually vorticity (spin caused by wind shear). Without significant vorticity, there will be no tornado.



Inventor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,014
Location: New Orleans

20 Oct 2009, 4:24 am

Stop air from moving? I do not think we are there. I have seen dust devils only a few foot high, and felt the change in air as I passed from one side to the other. It was a very minor wind shift, but the edge produced spinning air.

60,000 foot up, large masses moving fast, you never know till the loose end comes down and then it is late to do anything but seek cover. I have seen miles of large pines that looked like they were mowed, all twisted off at fifteen foot, very neat, and that was a small twister before a hurricane.

I have been through hurricanes, winds of 125, but F4&5 I have only seen pictures of what used to be towns. Nothing is going to stop that.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

21 Oct 2009, 9:09 pm

ViperaAspis wrote:

So ... both of you gents are a bit off. Coriolis force is indeed a rotation based definition (#5 is wrong about this being shear), but it is relating to the Earth's rotation (Ruveyn is wrong about it applying to any rotating frame of reference).


From the wiki article on the Coriolis Effect:

"In physics, the Coriolis effect is an apparent deflection of moving objects when they are viewed from a rotating reference frame."

ruveyn



ViperaAspis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,083
Location: Portland, OR

21 Oct 2009, 10:08 pm

^ I'm just repeating what is in the dictionary. If you want to use a Wikipedia definition, a physics definition, or a definition from popular culture (like the rock band of the same name) feel free. Just be aware that one of you may be arguing from one definition and the other may be arguing from yet another. This will lead to a silly argument over terms and semantics until you both suddenly realize that you've agreed with each other way back on page one.


_________________
Who am I? This guy! http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt97863.html