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Navy Chemist May Have Rediscovered 'Cold Fusion'

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ruveyn
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18 Jun 2011, 9:01 am

TTRSage wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I am quite disappointed in the literal dearth of followup research on this. It's actually kind of frustrating.


I agree. This is such a potential boon to the world that there should be a flood of research into the mere possibility that this could be real.


How about turning lead into gold?

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18 Jun 2011, 9:05 am

Wooster wrote:
Haha - I'm not really a conspiracy freak as such - but for example I have no doubt the only reason those two American guys who cracked the one way encryption algorithm thing (public key / private key) are still alive is that they immediately made their discovery public...

With the cold fusion thing it does seem odd how quickly it all died away at the time - considering how big it blew up to initially - and then there's been virtually no more on it. I'm quite surprised to hear this new stuff come up about it all.


For a very good reason. No one was able to replicate the results that Ponns and Fleischer claimed. First hurdle for astonishing claims made in science is replication of results by other parties who would score big by refuting the results.

A case in point: Einstein's claims that light came in quanta (we now call light quanta photons) was doubted by much by Millikan who to his total astonishment did an experiment that proved Einstein was right. When a doubter verifies the claim, it carries much more weight.

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18 Jun 2011, 2:35 pm

ruveyn wrote:
TTRSage wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I am quite disappointed in the literal dearth of followup research on this. It's actually kind of frustrating.


I agree. This is such a potential boon to the world that there should be a flood of research into the mere possibility that this could be real.


How about turning lead into gold?

ruveyn


that can already be done in nuclear reactors i think. doesn't work very well IIRC.

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/generalch ... 50601a.htm

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... google.com



ruveyn
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18 Jun 2011, 4:29 pm

oldmantime wrote:

that can already be done in nuclear reactors i think. doesn't work very well IIRC.



Micro grams of lead have be transformed into micro grams of gold at a huge cost. Which is why it is not worth doing except to demonstrate the principle the elements can be transformed. The "philosopher's stone" is a particle accelerator which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to run an hour.

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oldmantime
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19 Jun 2011, 1:21 pm

not if we had cold fusion! :P



ruveyn
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19 Jun 2011, 3:01 pm

oldmantime wrote:
not if we had cold fusion! :P


There is no cold fusion. The coulumb repulsion of the protons in the nucleus must be overcome to fuse light atoms. That requires a lot of energy which means very high temperatures.

Cold fusion is a will of the wisp. A happy wishful thought.

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19 Jun 2011, 7:53 pm

ruveyn wrote:
For a very good reason. No one was able to replicate the results that Ponns and Fleischer claimed.

Actually, that experiment had been replicated many times since then. I read a paper a few years ago that links the chance of that reaction to the purity of the palladium. They were just incredibly lucky to had observed it with the kind of materials they used.

That said, the only indication of fusion is very small amount of transmutation in some cases. I think there's some unknown physics in action, but I won't bet on it being cold fusion. Whatever it is, the amount of claimed excess heat is so small and released over such a long time that it's unlikely to be useful for electricity generation.



ruveyn
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20 Jun 2011, 5:46 am

CloudWalker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
For a very good reason. No one was able to replicate the results that Ponns and Fleischer claimed.

Actually, that experiment had been replicated many times since then. I read a paper a few years ago that links the chance of that reaction to the purity of the palladium. They were just incredibly lucky to had observed it with the kind of materials they used.

That said, the only indication of fusion is very small amount of transmutation in some cases. I think there's some unknown physics in action, but I won't bet on it being cold fusion. Whatever it is, the amount of claimed excess heat is so small and released over such a long time that it's unlikely to be useful for electricity generation.


If so, then it was not a nuclear fusion reaction. Fusion is simple in principle: two light atoms overcome Coulomb repulsion and fusion into a heavier atom with a loss of total mass that is converted into energy according to Einstein's equation.

To overcome the Coulomb repulsion so the strong force becomes operative requires lots and lots of energy which translates into lots and lots of heat a high temperatures. That is why Tokomaks have a higher temperature to produce the plasma than the interior of the Sun.

Bottom line: no cold -fusion-. Maybe something else is happening but whatever it is, it is not nuclear fusion.

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20 Jun 2011, 8:29 am

ruveyn wrote:
CloudWalker wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
For a very good reason. No one was able to replicate the results that Ponns and Fleischer claimed.

Actually, that experiment had been replicated many times since then. I read a paper a few years ago that links the chance of that reaction to the purity of the palladium. They were just incredibly lucky to had observed it with the kind of materials they used.

That said, the only indication of fusion is very small amount of transmutation in some cases. I think there's some unknown physics in action, but I won't bet on it being cold fusion. Whatever it is, the amount of claimed excess heat is so small and released over such a long time that it's unlikely to be useful for electricity generation.


If so, then it was not a nuclear fusion reaction. Fusion is simple in principle: two light atoms overcome Coulomb repulsion and fusion into a heavier atom with a loss of total mass that is converted into energy according to Einstein's equation.

To overcome the Coulomb repulsion so the strong force becomes operative requires lots and lots of energy which translates into lots and lots of heat a high temperatures. That is why Tokomaks have a higher temperature to produce the plasma than the interior of the Sun.

Bottom line: no cold -fusion-. Maybe something else is happening but whatever it is, it is not nuclear fusion.

ruveyn


foten what is "meant" by cold fusion is that no external heating is required, not that the reaction itself is heatless.

i still dont think it's possible though,
even "hot" sustained fusion seems unlikely, there could be some promise in pulsed fusion but we still have a long way to go.


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20 Jun 2011, 8:39 am

Oodain wrote:

foten what is "meant" by cold fusion is that no external heating is required, not that the reaction itself is heatless.

i still dont think it's possible though,
even "hot" sustained fusion seems unlikely, there could be some promise in pulsed fusion but we still have a long way to go.


Heatless? Impossible. Energy is required to overcome the Coulomb repulsion of the protons.

Controlled fusion is a loser. It has been thirty years in the future for the last sixty years and it will be thirty years in the future a hundred years from now. If you want fusion you need a lot of mass and gravitation. We already have it. It is called the sun. Or thermonuclear bombs set off by a-bombs.

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20 Jun 2011, 12:07 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Oodain wrote:

foten what is "meant" by cold fusion is that no external heating is required, not that the reaction itself is heatless.

i still dont think it's possible though,
even "hot" sustained fusion seems unlikely, there could be some promise in pulsed fusion but we still have a long way to go.


Heatless? Impossible. Energy is required to overcome the Coulomb repulsion of the protons.


yes it is impossible, that is excaclty what i wrote.
but it might be possible to use methods other than external heating, magnetic acceleration has been used as have ultrasonic soundwaves,
here only the reaction itself is hot, not the whole chain leading to and from, still needs energy.


ruveyn wrote:
Controlled fusion is a loser. It has been thirty years in the future for the last sixty years and it will be thirty years in the future a hundred years from now. If you want fusion you need a lot of mass and gravitation. We already have it. It is called the sun. Or thermonuclear bombs set off by a-bombs.
ruveyn

almost all serious experiments in the past was for sustained fusion, pulsed fusion is an entirely different aproach with new pro's and con's.
not that we know if it works or not.

the probloem with sustained fusion is the chaotic nature of superheated plasma.


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23 Jun 2011, 2:37 pm

ruveyn wrote:
oldmantime wrote:
anyone think we should place bets on whether or not it's already installed on some sub running around in circles in the ocean while the world's sociopolitical issues worsen in part over energy problems? :/ j/k


A surefire win.

ruveyn


This sub must have lots of cargo capacity, so it can also carry the perpetual motion machine, the Foutain of Youth, the aforementioned Philosopher's Stone, the remains of Emelia Erhardt and her airplane, and a breeding pair of yetis.