What do numbers objectively look like in the physical realm?

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jackmt
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24 Dec 2011, 2:58 am

cw10 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

graywyvern wrote:

patterns exist, but numbers are an artifact of having fingers.

the universe is indeed extremely rhythmical. i think there may well be many other ways of expressing this, besides our conceptual system of mathematics. it has been made more & more subtle, to the point where it seems to describe reality with great precision--as long as we stay in the context of physical measurement.

.

Patterns are mind made.

ruveyn

Does an quartz crystal exist if no one is around to see it?

Geometry exists, but to be perceived as a pattern one requires a mind.

I experienced several things that supports this. Once I was working in front of a house with an old fashioned electric meter at about face height. It was round. Because of the way I was working it kept creeping into my periphery, and my mind kept transforming it into a face. I tried to remember it so it would not happen. It kept happening. I kept it in my periphery and determined not to see a face. I could only delay it for a few seconds before it happened again.

Last edited by jackmt on 27 Dec 2011, 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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24 Dec 2011, 12:06 pm

cw10 wrote:

Does an quartz crystal exist if no one is around to see it?

Geometry exists, but to be perceived as a pattern one requires a mind.

The stuff of which a quartz crystal is made exists without use. The pattern we call crystal exists in our "minds". Our brains create it. Nature provides the dots. Humans connect them.

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NarcissusSavage
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31 Dec 2011, 9:07 am

Only two numbers exist. 1 and 0. All other numbers are derived from 1 and 0.

1 looks like everything and is difficult to fully picture.
0 looks like the lack of everything, and similarily is difficult to picture.

I'm prone to using the electrical symbol of a simple single throw switch for representation, myself. Although am also fond of the symbolism of the Yin-Yang.

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ruveyn
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31 Dec 2011, 5:43 pm

NarcissusSavage wrote:

How is pi derived from 1 and 0?

ruveyn

Sunshine7
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01 Jan 2012, 2:18 pm

11.
00100100 00111111 01101010 10001000 10000101 10100011 00001000 11010011
00010011 00011001 10001010 00101110 00000011 01110000 01110011 01000100
10100100 00001001 00111000 00100010 00101001 10011111 00110001 11010000
00001000 00101110 11111010 10011000 11101100 01001110 01101100 10001001...

ruveyn
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01 Jan 2012, 4:45 pm

Sunshine7 wrote:

That is a representation, not a derivation.

ruveyn

NarcissusSavage
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03 Jan 2012, 3:51 am

ruveyn wrote:

NarcissusSavage wrote:

How is pi derived from 1 and 0?

ruveyn

It's fairly obvious. And your intellect is not small. I'm sure you know. Are you mocking me?

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03 Jan 2012, 6:49 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:

It's fairly obvious. And your intellect is not small. I'm sure you know. Are you mocking me?

Why not be polite and answer the question.

Have 0 and 1 is not sufficient for deriving pi. One needs the limit concept.

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jackmt
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10 Jan 2012, 7:14 pm

DuneyBlues wrote:

"No answer is truly final"

Duneyblues

Is that your final answer?

ruveyn
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11 Jan 2012, 8:46 pm

ruveyn wrote:

NarcissusSavage wrote:

It's fairly obvious. And your intellect is not small. I'm sure you know. Are you mocking me?

Why not be polite and answer the question.

Have 0 and 1 is not sufficient for deriving pi. One needs the limit concept.

ruveyn

The above sentence should read: Having 0 and 1 is not sufficient for deriving pi. One needs the limit concept.

Sorry about that typo.

ruveyn

scubasteve
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11 Jan 2012, 11:28 pm

graywyvern wrote:

patterns exist, but numbers are an artifact of having fingers.

The base-10 number system is an artifact of having fingers. But children recognize number long before they can count fingers.

We have an innate perception of number, which is separate from the ways we represent it, but still a matter of perception...

DuneyBlues wrote:

what do numbers truely look like , that is existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions.

If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?

It might... But without perceiving it, how would we know what it sounded like?
.

ruveyn
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12 Jan 2012, 3:31 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:

It's fairly obvious. And your intellect is not small. I'm sure you know. Are you mocking me?

Savage. Being able to count on two fingers does not produce pi. To get pi you have to be able to take the limit of a convergent series. I am not mocking you. I am merely pointing out that you are missing something important. Review how pi is computed. If you do it the way Archimedes did it you have to construct an infinite series of polygons inscribed in a circle. As the number of sides goes to infinity you can computer the area of a set of triangles and divide by the radius squared. You will get an approximation to pie.

Using trigonometric series you can get even more efficient estimators of pi. A number system is NOT enough. You have to be able to take limits and show convergence.

Got it?

ruveyn

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12 Jan 2012, 4:15 am

jackmt wrote:

But this not quite right, for if 1 = (0+1) then 2 = ((0+1)+(0+1)). Thus there are only 2 numbers: 0 and 1. And those numbers name the relations 'non-existence' and 'existence,' respectively.

In base N arithmetic you need N-1 non zero digits and 0. In base 2 arithmetic you need 1 digit (I know! We will call it 1!) and 0.

non-existence and existence are for Philosophers. 0 and 1 are for mathematicians.

ruveyn

scubasteve
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12 Jan 2012, 5:18 am

ruveyn wrote:

non-existence and existence are for Philosophers. 0 and 1 are for mathematicians.

If there are 0 of something, it doesn't exist. I don't see the difference.

NarcissusSavage wrote:

How do you know what 1 "looks like"? It seems you're just taking our conceptualizations of what 0 and 1 signify, and adding the words "looks like" before it.

We can't "picture" something without using our perceptions, by definition.

We might be able to prove the content of an image mathematically, but then we'd be using numbers to prove something about numbers...

ruveyn
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12 Jan 2012, 9:43 am

scubasteve wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

non-existence and existence are for Philosophers. 0 and 1 are for mathematicians.

If there are 0 of something, it doesn't exist. I don't see the difference.

Two opposing forces produce a 0 -net- force. Both the forces exist. 0 is something, not nothing. It is the identity element for addition.

One of the leading canards is that 0 is nothing. Not true.

ruveyn

Sunshine7
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12 Jan 2012, 2:02 pm

Proposition

Quote:

If there are 0 of something, it doesn't exist.I don't see the difference.

A) There are zero apples.
B) Apples don't exist. (contradictory result)

Or in complement form:
B') Apples exist.
A') There are nonzero apples (result does not follow)

Proposition disproved.

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