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Shiggily
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29 Dec 2008, 8:52 pm

Orwell wrote:
The greater male variability could be a large part of it; given that in a field such as math the only people who matter are those at the very far end of the bell curve, the broader bell curve seen for males could result in disproportionate representation at the highest levels in the field even when males and females are roughly equal in ability on average.


very interesting speculation



Shiggily
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29 Dec 2008, 8:53 pm

Fnord wrote:
I've known girls who earned straight "As" in math, but who were discouraged or intimidated from taking maths higher than high-school algebra.

This may be a holdover from the pre-1960s era, when women were believed to attend college only to earn an "MRS" degree - husband-hunting, as it were, and that woman with a college graduate husband have no need to earn an actual degree in the first place. Barbaric times.

I've offered to tutor nieces in algebra for free, but the girls soon lose interest in favor of texting their bffs about who said what to whom and why ... :roll:


that would indicate a lack of interest.



Shiggily
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29 Dec 2008, 8:54 pm

physicsteen wrote:
Boys are not "naturally" better at math than girls. I think a lot of it has to do with stereotypes. Likewise, girls aren't naturally better at the arts than boys. The sciences were male dominated but more girls are finding out they can excel in the same areas. This should be proof that society should stop making excuses for girls and empower them instead.


I am most concerned with higher levels of math and less concerned with lower levels of math.



Shiggily
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29 Dec 2008, 8:55 pm

YowlingCat wrote:
It's primarily a US cultural phenomenon. Women who come from other countries do just fine, and their numbers are increasing, even in those countries. It's a matter of expectation. We don't expect much from our students, male or female.


that definitely is a US cultural issue. But it often extend beyond math to include foreign languages and quite of few branches of science.



Hector
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29 Dec 2008, 9:23 pm

I'd be surprised if there was an equal amount of female mathematicians as male mathematicians in virtually any country in the world. Certainly the disparity continues on from North America into Europe, at the very least. I'm not sure about China, but again I'd be surprised.



Shiggily
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29 Dec 2008, 9:34 pm

Hector wrote:
I'd be surprised if there was an equal amount of female mathematicians as male mathematicians in virtually any country in the world. Certainly the disparity continues on from North America into Europe, at the very least. I'm not sure about China, but again I'd be surprised.

not likely equal. just less unbalanced.



Hector
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29 Dec 2008, 9:41 pm

Maybe, but not by all that much I would have thought. I've seen and met mathematicians from a wide variety of European backgrounds and only a small minority are women. Thus it seems to me to be inaccurate to write off the disparity as being a "US cultural phenomenon"..



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29 Dec 2008, 10:16 pm

I don't know if you're an American, Hector, but it definitely is cultural. Women have not been expected to perform well in mathematics - ever. It's been a good-'ol-boys club that women in the US are really just breaking into. There have to be role models, and it takes time to generate a substantive number to influence society. Women in China, Russian, Turkey, Korea and many other places, expect women to be high achievers. Unless parents are aware of the value of a math education here in the US, it's just not going to happen if left up the the kids. It's too easy to take simple subjects that don't require rigor, and that are seen as socially acceptable. Stupidity and ignorance are still in.

http://web.mit.edu/science/newsletters/sos_fall2008.pdf

You'll note in the MIT newsletter that the first female biology faculty member was not appointed until 1967. Do you realize how recent that is? There will be more and more female mathematicians as time goes by. Probably not so much here, but elsewhere. Nonetheless, just look at all the women in hard sciences there at MIT. The cultural change is happening.

You may not have met them personally, but they are there. busy working and studying,



yesplease
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29 Dec 2008, 11:04 pm

Biology probably plays a role, but considering how much sweat equity is required for a grad degree in any field I think it's way more nurture than nature. Here's an interesting read. IME there were only a few more male than female math grad students, but the male to female faculty ratio was nearly ten to one, probably due to the huge gender gap in the past.

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Nationally, the percentage of women earning doctorates in science, engineering, and math has grown more than four-fold since the 1960s, suggesting considerable change in public attitudes about those fields being for men. Women have gone from receiving 8 percent of science and engineering doctorates in 1966 to earning 37 percent in 2001. In mathematics, the increase has been from 6 percent in 1966 to 25 percent in 2000.



Xelebes
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29 Dec 2008, 11:14 pm

There is a lot of women in the accounting schools, I find. In my accounting program at my school, there is around 200 women and 100 men. Close enough to mathematics but it's also management.



Shiggily
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29 Dec 2008, 11:49 pm

Hector wrote:
Maybe, but not by all that much I would have thought. I've seen and met mathematicians from a wide variety of European backgrounds and only a small minority are women. Thus it seems to me to be inaccurate to write off the disparity as being a "US cultural phenomenon"..


there is a high majority of foreign math professors, that I have seen... Russian/Eastern European/German, and Japanese/Chinese.

if you want to speak the language of math, you learn German, Russian, Chinese, and/or Japanese (plus English).

Korea is climbing up there.



Shiggily
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29 Dec 2008, 11:51 pm

Xelebes wrote:
There is a lot of women in the accounting schools, I find. In my accounting program at my school, there is around 200 women and 100 men. Close enough to mathematics but it's also management.


any women that get into math seem to stay on the fringes... teaching, statistics, finance/business. Very few go into applied math and even less go into pure mathematics.



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31 Dec 2008, 1:53 pm

I'm heartbroken over the unfair advantage that men in our society have. My talents for mathematics were ignored and taken for granted by adults in my life growing up. I was also traumatised as a kid and never got to develop an intensity for anything, that I now crave, and have craved for a long time. Special interests in mathematics for a female with AS are a pure luxury, and to be a female with AS and pursue the kind of mathematics that you want and achieve a higher order profession is like a miracle that I'm waiting to witness on Sunday. I'm not generally a male basher, but the fact is, men disallow women from achievement of anything outside of a family at large. Women have to work around men to do the same things that everyone steps back and allows men to do freely. The females natural nurturing instincts have been exploited to show mothering as a dominant interest of women. Not all women really like mathematics or science, so it is acceptable to assume that nothing in these realms has been unfairly withheld from some, but the numbers should at least be even, as with the number of women and men with AS. UNFAIR.



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31 Dec 2008, 4:00 pm

:roll: There's nothing stopping all the many and myriad women who are in my school's math (ed) major from pursuing it seriously except that they aren't serious. One doesn't get someplace because anyone gives a s**t; you get someplace by pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.


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Fnord
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31 Dec 2008, 4:12 pm

Shiggily wrote:
Fnord wrote:
... I've offered to tutor nieces in algebra for free, but the girls soon lose interest in favor of texting their bffs about who said what to whom and why ... :roll:

that would indicate a lack of interest.

Ah, but why? I do my best to explain the fundamentals, but I can't inspire interest.



YowlingCat
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31 Dec 2008, 4:28 pm

Uncle Fnord:
"Now, for example, take this equation, (x^2+3x+5)/(x(x+1)), if you........"

Nieces:
"Did you know, um, like, that Mary was, like, um still seeing Mike?..."

They'll need a female to do the 'splainin' at this point. Too far gone in the system as it is. And who wants to listen to Uncle Nerdy? :P