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CloudWalker
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21 Mar 2010, 8:00 pm

LordoftheMonkeys wrote:
It's funny that you should mention emulators, because Linux has this neat little thing called Wine... look it up. :D

fyi, wine stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator". It's a compatibility layer that translates apis.

MyFutureSelfnMe wrote:
In 1993 it was actually pretty awesome, considering the alternative was Windows 3.1. Unfortunately the development curve of Windows since then has been at least twice as steep as Linux. Most of the mandarins in charge of the kernel are crusty old 50 year olds who don't like change and the UI design is mostly done by programmers, which is a no-no.

You must be kidding. The first stable Linux, version 1.0.0, was released on 14 Mar 1994. And unless you considered recompiling the kernel a fun bundled game, it wasn't a practical OS until Linus gave in to the idea of loadable kernel module much later.

LordoftheMonkeys wrote:
And MyFutureSelfAndMe, all computer user interfaces are written by programmers. Duh!

The framework of games are written by programmers too, but the assets are designed by artists. The same goes for UI nowadays.



0_equals_true
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21 Mar 2010, 8:28 pm

I got what LordoftheMonkeys meant. Average programmers have a poor idea of interface. I say this programmer. Artists aren’t interface designers either There a few people that don't take WIMP for granted. The point is they aren’t usually designed by interface experts, and done in an ad-hoc way.

@OP Seriously though welcome to Youtube comments. I don’t think any of these rivalries are worth bothering with, just use what you like.



Eggman
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21 Mar 2010, 8:44 pm

CloudWalker wrote:
LordoftheMonkeys wrote:
It's funny that you should mention emulators, because Linux has this neat little thing called Wine... look it up. :D

fyi, wine stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator". It's a compatibility layer that translates apis.

MyFutureSelfnMe wrote:
In 1993 it was actually pretty awesome, considering the alternative was Windows 3.1. Unfortunately the development curve of Windows since then has been at least twice as steep as Linux. Most of the mandarins in charge of the kernel are crusty old 50 year olds who don't like change and the UI design is mostly done by programmers, which is a no-no.

You must be kidding. The first stable Linux, version 1.0.0, was released on 14 Mar 1994. And unless you considered recompiling the kernel a fun bundled game, it wasn't a practical OS until Linus gave in to the idea of loadable kernel module much later.

LordoftheMonkeys wrote:
And MyFutureSelfAndMe, all computer user interfaces are written by programmers. Duh!

The framework of games are written by programmers too, but the assets are designed by artists. The same goes for UI nowadays.


without the programers, its just pretty pictures


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Hermid
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21 Mar 2010, 10:21 pm

Some people in the Linux Communitys can be complete dushe bags an arrogent.

I dont have a problem with Windows or mac. I use windows 7 for gamming however running some of the stuff for MSTS(the editiors) seems to be buggy under windows 7.

I use Mandriva for day to day use for the most part



Eggman
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21 Mar 2010, 10:25 pm

Hermid wrote:
Some people in the Linux Communitys can be complete dushe bags an arrogent.

I dont have a problem with Windows or mac. I use windows 7 for gamming however running some of the stuff for MSTS(the editiors) seems to be buggy under windows 7.

I use Mandriva for day to day use for the most part


I think you will need to look hard to find any comunity without those people


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Ambivalence
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22 Mar 2010, 6:59 am

LordoftheMonkeys wrote:
It's funny that you should mention emulators, because Linux has this neat little thing called Wine... look it up. :D


Wine is very far from perfect, or I'd be tempted to switch from Vista to Ubuntu Whateverty Whatever.


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pumibel
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23 Mar 2010, 12:06 am

I am an equal opportunity end-user. I have Windows, Mac, and Linux. I spend most of my time nowadays on Linux, and I don't understand the hate either.

As for the general attitude on forums- I have noticed that they have no patience for noobs. If you go into any Linux forums needing help with something you better go to the section specifically for newbies first and read FAQs, then run a search on your problem. I have been a member of a couple different Linux forums for a while and have only posted introduction threads because most of what I needed to know has already been asked and covered (several times) in the forums. This is why they get frustrated, mostly. I have noticed the same thing on just about every other forum I have been to, not just Linux forums. People generally don't like repeating themselves (unless it is about a special interest, of course).

There are a large amount of people who use Youtube as a dumping ground for their vitriol. I swear they are on there just to spew nastiness and for no other reason.



MyFutureSelfnMe
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23 Mar 2010, 9:48 am

If they have to answer the same question a thousand times, chances are the solution to the problem needs to be simplified.



FredOak3
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23 Mar 2010, 10:57 am

As a programmer I've worked in all kinds of OS's
I recently switched one of my laptops to Linux and after several months said the hell with it.
It wasn't that I didn't like it, it was that it crashed, had driver issues, etc, etc. just like any other OS I've used or am using.

So I switched it back. Doesn't mean I might not try it again someday (I've done this a half dozen times over the years), but found no compelling reason to switch, yet.



Fuzzy
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23 Mar 2010, 12:51 pm

Ambivalence wrote:

Wine is very far from perfect, or I'd be tempted to switch from Vista to Ubuntu Whateverty Whatever.


Very far from perfect. Ironically newer games seem to work better than older ones(if they work at all), at least those without draconian DRM.

One I have been enjoying for weeks is fallout 3. It came out just prior to Vista. While its top end features are for directx10(and thus the game is crippled in xp), the game runs with full size, full settings in wine. It turns out that what the publisher did was have the game look for directx10, but it only used dx9 functionality. Now why would a publisher do that? Who would benefit?

Wine provides fake those directx10 function stubs and the game has the full HDR effects.

Other games(I'm not much of a gamer, dont even know whats big right now) that I have successfully installed and played are The Sims 3 and Spore. These are all games that are sequels of games that were popular when I was a gamer. The last hold outs in my interest.

MyFutureSelfnMe wrote:

If they have to answer the same question a thousand times, chances are the solution to the problem needs to be simplified.


I recall one infamous question repeated at way too many times regarding programming games. It illustrates perfectly.

Newbie: "How do I make my character run?"
moderator: <points at walk tutorial link>
Newbie: "Thats for walking. I can do that. How do I RUN?"

I'm excusing the annoying newbies. The problem is that learning to program requires learning to think abstractly. Learning the syntax is the easier part.

A programmer new to code(of any type) is going to see their problem as novel, (because it is to them). If they lack confidence they might assume their difficulty is too simple to have been asked in the past.

You know the saying: if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Non programmers don't see the mechanics behind the code.


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MyFutureSelfnMe
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23 Mar 2010, 1:24 pm

That's a real shame about what they did with Fallout 3. Running some programs well doesn't make Wine a production-ready software package. Production-ready means there are a very limited number of things that don't work perfectly, and no whining about how impossible it is to achieve that.

An example of a question a newbie might ask regarding Linux is "why is it whenever I try to connect to an NFS share on my Ubuntu box, it says I need to specify the filesystem type. When I specify the filesystem type, it doesn't help?"... and then it turns out the real answer is the person needs to install the nfs-common package or whatever, which wasn't installed by default with Ubuntu. The error message makes no mention of that. It may well be true that 'mount' knows nothing about NFS at all without that package installed, so doesn't know what to do, but to the end user that error message is completely unacceptable.

These are the types of problems that need to be resolved to be "production ready". Having a user interface designed by programmers tends to result in the type of situation described above.



Fuzzy
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23 Mar 2010, 1:56 pm

MyFutureSelfnMe wrote:
That's a real shame about what they did with Fallout 3. Running some programs well doesn't make Wine a production-ready software package. Production-ready means there are a very limited number of things that don't work perfectly, and no whining about how impossible it is to achieve that.


Right. But I never said that. I dont think the developers claim it either.

Quote:
An example of a question a newbie might ask regarding Linux is "why is it whenever I try to connect to an NFS share on my Ubuntu box, it says I need to specify the filesystem type. When I specify the filesystem type, it doesn't help?"... and then it turns out the real answer is the person needs to install the nfs-common package or whatever, which wasn't installed by default with Ubuntu. The error message makes no mention of that. It may well be true that 'mount' knows nothing about NFS at all without that package installed, so doesn't know what to do, but to the end user that error message is completely unacceptable.


Thats true, but I dont recall having to install that package to get at my windows data.

It would be just as annoying as the error I had today(seemingly not uncommon) about an application closing due to a ntdll.dll problem. Microsoft says "ntdll.dll error" has about a dozen possible causes and solutions, none of which appear to be a download for a fresh ntdll.dll. Microsoft recommends "run windows update". A tricky task when you are already up to date.

me too wrote:
These are the types of problems that need to be resolved to be "production ready". Having a user interface designed by [b]non[\b]programmers tends to result in the type of situation described above.


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MyFutureSelfnMe
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23 Mar 2010, 2:06 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
Thats true, but I dont recall having to install that package to get at my windows data.

It would be just as annoying as the error I had today(seemingly not uncommon) about an application closing due to a ntdll.dll problem. Microsoft says "ntdll.dll error" has about a dozen possible causes and solutions, none of which appear to be a download for a fresh ntdll.dll. Microsoft recommends "run windows update". A tricky task when you are already up to date.


I haven't seen many issues that ridiculous since around Windows 98. I've seen none with Windows 7. I agree that they happen and when they do happen they tend to be more difficult to debug than their Linux equivalents because of the closed nature of Windows (which I still hold out hope will someday change - a production-ready version of Wine would be landscape-changing). However, Linux pukes virtually every time I try to do something new that I've never done before, which is why I have to keep Google open in another window.

To access a Windows share on an Ubuntu machine, you need to install Samba. Fortunately their GUI more or less leads you through this. They're improving in that respect. They still don't have a fully cohesive system, and it is difficult to accomplish that due to the distributed nature of the development. It's a strength and a weakness.

Still, if there was one open source project I had time to contribute to, it would be Wine. If someone released a future version of Ubuntu that had nearly complete support for seamlessly running Windows applications, lines on the map would move.



gamefreak
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23 Mar 2010, 7:56 pm

Maybe this statement is too little, too late but I would agree that people look at Linux users too unfairly as opposed to Mac and especially Windows Users.

Once in my Marketing Class I was talking to a classmate and she made this quote. " The reasons why Apple and all the other companies refuse to set up linux compatibility for their hardware and software is this simple. Linux users are losers who don't have any money because they do nothing but sit on a computer all day At least Windows and Mac users have a larger user base and have an ACTUAL life."

Not to mention that the teacher how teaches computers at the local technical institution says that most businesses in the local area use Windows 98SE and XP. Pretty much saying that he refuses to cover Linux in general because it is "Just a Hobbyist thing and I'm just a hobbyist."

I would gladly say that Linux users have just as much of a life as other users. The only difference between a Linux and Windows and Mac users is the O.S they use and feel comfortable with. Heck I know quite a few people that use Ubuntu who only use their computer for Social Networking and term papers. In the other time they go out and do stuff. I admit I was the one that introduced them to Ubuntu but still.



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23 Mar 2010, 8:03 pm

Markets like users, not makers


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MyFutureSelfnMe
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23 Mar 2010, 8:12 pm

gamefreak wrote:
Not to mention that the teacher how teaches computers at the local technical institution says that most businesses in the local area use Windows 98SE and XP. Pretty much saying that he refuses to cover Linux in general because it is "Just a Hobbyist thing and I'm just a hobbyist."


He teaches at a local technical institute, and local businesses don't have servers?