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Titangeek
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08 Dec 2010, 12:36 pm

Fixer_Girl wrote:

He's not a journalist, he's a convicted hacker who has nothing left in his life, other than to continue his 'hack the planet' mentality.




the term is "cracker", a "hacker" is

Quote:
a person who heavily modifies the software or hardware of their own computer system. It includes building, rebuilding, modifying, and creating software or electronic hardware, either to make it better, faster, to give it added features or to make it do something it was never intended to do.

:nerdy:


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08 Dec 2010, 12:44 pm

Orwell wrote:
Fixer: Are you denying that those were Reuter's journalists? Their corpses were identified. Literally no one disputes that they were journalists.

For the record, I don't really blame the soldiers who were involved in that incident. It appeared to them that they were looking at insurgents. It was an honest mistake in a tense situation, but it was a mistake nonetheless. Civilians died. The "collateral murder" video (that is a terrible name for it) gives a gruesome depiction of how bad war is, but policy-wise the leaked cables are much more interesting. Those document actual criminal activity on the part of government agents.

I note that you did not respond to my other points. As far as any defense agency in the world can tell, no agents have been compromised by the leaks. Many of these documents are not a matter of "national security," but rather a matter of "crimes have been committed by the government's orders and we don't want to be held accountable."

And please refrain from the personal attacks.


Actually, if you read my posts, you will see "Redacted information does not prevent against situational analysis - essentially reverse engineering the situation in an effort to identify individuals concerned. Assange is not an intelligence analyst. Manning was the lowest level intel analyst. As in, neither Manning, nor Assange have the professional experience necessary to effectively redact any form of int sum - they have effectively killed quite a few intelligence operatives."

I think you are missing the point; this isn't a pissing contest between you and me, this is about a 'cracker' compromising the very people who keep you safe.

As for illegal activity, are you really that naive to assume that all other governments conduct their intelligence gathering according to international law?

Assange has threatened to release all of the information - names and all.

I did answer you question, you are simply not able to realize that I did.

This is what I used to do for a living.



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08 Dec 2010, 12:48 pm

Orwell wrote:
Fixer: Are you denying that those were Reuter's journalists? Their corpses were identified. Literally no one disputes that they were journalists.

For the record, I don't really blame the soldiers who were involved in that incident. It appeared to them that they were looking at insurgents. It was an honest mistake in a tense situation, but it was a mistake nonetheless. Civilians died. The "collateral murder" video (that is a terrible name for it) gives a gruesome depiction of how bad war is, but policy-wise the leaked cables are much more interesting. Those document actual criminal activity on the part of government agents.

I note that you did not respond to my other points. As far as any defense agency in the world can tell, no agents have been compromised by the leaks. Many of these documents are not a matter of "national security," but rather a matter of "crimes have been committed by the government's orders and we don't want to be held accountable."

And please refrain from the personal attacks.


Nope, I'm not denying there were journalists present.

However, they were with individuals carrying an RPG and AK47's. Now, I could see that the AK's could be used for personal protection, however, an RPG is not a defensive weapon.

If you hang out with insurgents - regardless of who you are, or what you do - you're going to pay.

Interviewing insurgents is one thing, patrolling with them is something completely different.



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08 Dec 2010, 1:09 pm

Titangeek wrote:
Jetfox wrote:
Titangeek wrote:
Jetfox wrote:
if they don't attack me personally they can do what they want i don't care.

you wanted opinons...


what about indirectly?


like how would they do that can you give me an example?


there actions causing the government to get twitchy (i.e over reacting/closing the barn door after the horse is out) about what's on the internet (see: tsa body scanner)


good point but i'm pretty sure i've done nothing on the internet that they would care about, and if they attack youtube well i'm not getting views anyway.

and my answer to the body scanner is never to fly again, which doesn't bother me i'd rather never leave the security of my house or room in this case.


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Orwell
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08 Dec 2010, 1:15 pm

Fixer_Girl wrote:
Actually, if you read my posts, you will see "Redacted information does not prevent against situational analysis - essentially reverse engineering the situation in an effort to identify individuals concerned. Assange is not an intelligence analyst. Manning was the lowest level intel analyst. As in, neither Manning, nor Assange have the professional experience necessary to effectively redact any form of int sum - they have effectively killed quite a few intelligence operatives."

OK, but the people who supposedly do have the experience have looked at the leaked documents and haven't seen anyone being actually compromised, so you are still just speculating.

Quote:
I think you are missing the point; this isn't a pissing contest between you and me, this is about a 'cracker' compromising the very people who keep you safe.

Assange isn't a cracker. He never illegally accessed government computers (if he had, he would certainly be facing charges for that). He published documents that someone else gave to him. You should note that this is no different from what the editors at the New York Times, The Guardian, Le Monde, Der Spiegel, and El Pais have been doing, as all of those newspapers are in possession of all the leaked documents and are publishing them. I downloaded several large databases of raw data directly from the Guardian, not from Wikileaks.

And again—as far as any defence agency in the world has been able to ascertain, no one has been compromised. You are making things up.

As to whether this is a pissing contest, you were the one who began with the condescending BS. Act like a mature adult if you want to be taken seriously.

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As for illegal activity, are you really that naive to assume that all other governments conduct their intelligence gathering according to international law?

Illegal bombings by the US in Yemen? The UK violating the anti-cluster-bomb treaty it signed? How are such acts "intelligence gathering?" And no, I am not under the illusion that all other countries stictly abide by the law. But that does not excuse criminal behavior on the part of our government. I cannot control what Putin and the Russian government does. I do ostensibly share in responsibility for the American government, though, and I can't support a policy of illegal espionage and undeclared wars.

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I did answer you question, you are simply not able to realize that I did.

Incorrect. You are making far too many invalid assumptions, both about the leaks and about me.


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08 Dec 2010, 1:33 pm

Orwell wrote:
Fixer_Girl wrote:
Actually, if you read my posts, you will see "Redacted information does not prevent against situational analysis - essentially reverse engineering the situation in an effort to identify individuals concerned. Assange is not an intelligence analyst. Manning was the lowest level intel analyst. As in, neither Manning, nor Assange have the professional experience necessary to effectively redact any form of int sum - they have effectively killed quite a few intelligence operatives."

OK, but the people who supposedly do have the experience have looked at the leaked documents and haven't seen anyone being actually compromised, so you are still just speculating.

Quote:
I think you are missing the point; this isn't a pissing contest between you and me, this is about a 'cracker' compromising the very people who keep you safe.

Assange isn't a cracker. He never illegally accessed government computers (if he had, he would certainly be facing charges for that). He published documents that someone else gave to him. You should note that this is no different from what the editors at the New York Times, The Guardian, Le Monde, Der Spiegel, and El Pais have been doing, as all of those newspapers are in possession of all the leaked documents and are publishing them. I downloaded several large databases of raw data directly from the Guardian, not from Wikileaks.

And again—as far as any defence agency in the world has been able to ascertain, no one has been compromised. You are making things up.

As to whether this is a pissing contest, you were the one who began with the condescending BS. Act like a mature adult if you want to be taken seriously.

Quote:
As for illegal activity, are you really that naive to assume that all other governments conduct their intelligence gathering according to international law?

Illegal bombings by the US in Yemen? The UK violating the anti-cluster-bomb treaty it signed? How are such acts "intelligence gathering?" And no, I am not under the illusion that all other countries stictly abide by the law. But that does not excuse criminal behavior on the part of our government. I cannot control what Putin and the Russian government does. I do ostensibly share in responsibility for the American government, though, and I can't support a policy of illegal espionage and undeclared wars.

Quote:
I did answer you question, you are simply not able to realize that I did.

Incorrect. You are making far too many invalid assumptions, both about the leaks and about me.


You clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about.

You also don't have a clue how a government agency would handle 'publicly' any form of info sec breach.

What you do seem to have a handle on is that you love to hear yourself speak and love to read your own posts.

Further communication with you - who seems to be interested in merely acheiving some form of internet 'win' - is tantamount to pissing in the wind.

Frankly, you are so clueless about any form of defense matter, I'd have to compromise opsec just to bring you up to speed.

Blab on all you like from here, I'm having nothing more to do with you.



LordoftheMonkeys
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08 Dec 2010, 1:53 pm

Titangeek wrote:
the term is "cracker", a "hacker" is


Ditto. This always annoyed me as well. Hackers are people who are extremely skilled with computers. This doesn't mean they are crackers, nor does maliciously breaching security require any computer skills.


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09 Dec 2010, 3:36 pm

Quatermass wrote:
The concept of WikiLeaks is a sound one, and the current attacks on the website show that the US and the other governments worldwide are really afraid of what will be or has been released. I do support some of their principles. We do need a website, or several, that watches the watchmen.

But then again, I don't think that WikiLeaks' actual modus operandi is really that sound. They don't seem to give a flying one for the consequences of their actions, except when it directly affects them.

I think that one of the problems with WikiLeaks compared to, say, investigative journalism, is that investigative journalism tends to consider the consequences of their actions. Releasing all of these documents and expecting not to get burned suggests either naivety or apathy of the consequences.

Are these guys terrorists? Of course not. Are they criminals? Depends. Personally, and from my limited knowledge of the situation, I think that they are more quixotic agent provocateurs who don't understand that they may be causing more trouble for people who don't deserve it. And I'm not talking about governments here. Many governments deserve a kick up the arse every now and again. It's the people on the ground. I heard that there are some named human rights activists who will be targeted thanks to WikiLeaks' carelessness.

The point to be made here is that of responsibility and accountability. Both governments around the world and WikiLeaks must learn to take responsibility for their own actions.


Wikileaks doesn't impulsively leak documents - they've literally combed over thousands of the documents to ensure that nothing compromising military lives is leaked.


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09 Dec 2010, 4:08 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Quatermass wrote:
The concept of WikiLeaks is a sound one, and the current attacks on the website show that the US and the other governments worldwide are really afraid of what will be or has been released. I do support some of their principles. We do need a website, or several, that watches the watchmen.

But then again, I don't think that WikiLeaks' actual modus operandi is really that sound. They don't seem to give a flying one for the consequences of their actions, except when it directly affects them.

I think that one of the problems with WikiLeaks compared to, say, investigative journalism, is that investigative journalism tends to consider the consequences of their actions. Releasing all of these documents and expecting not to get burned suggests either naivety or apathy of the consequences.

Are these guys terrorists? Of course not. Are they criminals? Depends. Personally, and from my limited knowledge of the situation, I think that they are more quixotic agent provocateurs who don't understand that they may be causing more trouble for people who don't deserve it. And I'm not talking about governments here. Many governments deserve a kick up the arse every now and again. It's the people on the ground. I heard that there are some named human rights activists who will be targeted thanks to WikiLeaks' carelessness.

The point to be made here is that of responsibility and accountability. Both governments around the world and WikiLeaks must learn to take responsibility for their own actions.


Wikileaks doesn't impulsively leak documents - they've literally combed over thousands of the documents to ensure that nothing compromising military lives is leaked.

Not to mention attempting to consult with the US government to ensure that anything that could even risk compromising national security would be properly redacted. The US government, of course, declined to do so. Who's irresponsible and doesn't care about national security now? Wikileaks could quite easily have just dumped all the uncensored files out onto the Internet.


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10 Dec 2010, 2:10 am

Assange did not solicit Manning. Wikileaks deliberately keeps itself unaware of the names of their sources (note: an eyewitness is a primary source, so yes, Fixer, you do have a 'source.'), and Wikileaks was unaware of Manning's identity until Manning outed himself online.
Wikileaks' entire model is a site where whistleblowers can deposit information that they believe is newsworthy while remaining anonymous. Given that the U.S. has already jailed journalists in an attempt to force them to reveal their sources, this is an important niche in the news media. The niche would not be there -wikileaks would have no role - if the news media were doing enough actual investigative journalism and there were some other way for whistleblowers to release information anonymously.



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12 Dec 2010, 3:45 pm

Some of Ran Prieur's views http://ranprieur.com/archives/032.html#assangemyth

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Suppose the leaks continue, and the leaks are popularly seen to contribute to America's decline as a world power. How will they think of Julian Assange in 100 years, or 1000 years? His myth has the potential to be like Robin Hood, if Robin Hood had brought down the Roman Empire.


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If they make a movie about Assange, the most interesting character will be Obama. He also wanted to change the world by empowering people from the bottom up, but his fatal mistake was working within the system. It's popular to blame Obama personally for the decisions that pass through his office, but I think a file clerk has more autonomy, more room to bend the job description, than the president of the United States. The farther you go up the hierarchy, the more you must obey the logic of the hierarchy itself. I wonder if Obama fantasizes about being Assange, and yet, is required to crush him.


That lad cracks me up. :lol:

My philosophy is that open systems are almost always better than closed ones.


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Titangeek
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12 Dec 2010, 3:55 pm

Moog wrote:
My philosophy is that open systems are almost always better than closed ones.


could you point one out plz


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12 Dec 2010, 5:18 pm

An open system is one that allows energy to flow freely.

In this context, I mean open as in people have access to information, as opposed to not having access to information.


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