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ruveyn
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13 Feb 2011, 5:13 pm

Quantum_Immortal wrote:
There's the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics. Its sort of a proof for the existence of at least a limited multiverse.


There is not an iota of physical evidence for a multiverse. All we have the the cosmos we all live in.

ruveyn



Brianm
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13 Feb 2011, 6:52 pm

I plead the fifth.



Biokinetica
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13 Feb 2011, 11:15 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Quantum_Immortal wrote:
There's the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics. Its sort of a proof for the existence of at least a limited multiverse.


There is not an iota of physical evidence for a multiverse. All we have the the cosmos we all live in.

ruveyn

Then you have some laser experiments to read up on.



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14 Feb 2011, 3:43 am

Biokinetica wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Quantum_Immortal wrote:
There's the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics. Its sort of a proof for the existence of at least a limited multiverse.


There is not an iota of physical evidence for a multiverse. All we have the the cosmos we all live in.

ruveyn

Then you have some laser experiments to read up on.


Reference to refereed journal articles please. Thank you.

By the way; the MWI and the CI interpretation of quantum physics produce the same predictions. The CI is philosophically unsatisfying. But so what? All that matters are the predictions. As some famous physicist once said: shut up and calculate. The equations ARE the theory, not philosophical cow swallop.

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14 Feb 2011, 6:54 am

A good theory may often start with philosophical insight :)

Has to eventually be backed up with numbers of course.


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ruveyn
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14 Feb 2011, 9:46 am

PatrickNeville wrote:
A good theory may often start with philosophical insight :)

Has to eventually be backed up with numbers of course.


Which have to be derived from instrumental measurements.

ruveyn



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14 Feb 2011, 1:57 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Biokinetica wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Quantum_Immortal wrote:
There's the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics. Its sort of a proof for the existence of at least a limited multiverse.


There is not an iota of physical evidence for a multiverse. All we have the the cosmos we all live in.

ruveyn

Then you have some laser experiments to read up on.


Reference to refereed journal articles please. Thank you.

By the way; the MWI and the CI interpretation of quantum physics produce the same predictions. The CI is philosophically unsatisfying. But so what? All that matters are the predictions. As some famous physicist once said: shut up and calculate. The equations ARE the theory, not philosophical cow swallop.

ruveyn

Here are more research papers than you'll be able to read in a life-time. Clearly, real physicists don't agree with you. The delayed choice quantum eraser is integral in this as well, so don't skip that part. As for your predictions being the only things that matter, you're flat-wrong. That's one portion of the scientific method. Experimental data is just as important.

ruveyn wrote:
PatrickNeville wrote:
A good theory may often start with philosophical insight :)

Has to eventually be backed up with numbers of course.


Which have to be derived from instrumental measurements.

ruveyn

Have you ever read a paper on this subject?



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14 Feb 2011, 3:47 pm

ruveyn - Please provide evidence to demonstrate that the hypothesis: "the is multiverse extant" is not the case. Be reminded that this subject is considered theoretical physics.

As for the rest of the thread, there appears to be more banter than empirical reasoning.
It would appear that there is no direct physical evidence that the multiverse exists, rather, it is quite indirect (at the present time).



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14 Feb 2011, 4:23 pm

Orwell wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Orwell wrote:
user1001 wrote:
I am a full believer in M theory

It is not appropriate to express "belief" or disbelief in a scientific notion until you have data and evidence.

We talking about the string theory there, faith is a appropraite concept. :lol:

In the context of scientific notions, agnosticism is the only appropriate response to an idea that has yet to accumulate evidence for or against.

While your general assertion is true, what nobody here agrees on is how much evidence will be "enough". It's easy to say "evidence has to back the claims", but if nobody sets the bar for how much constitutes 'backing the claims', we're spinning our wheels.



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27 Oct 2011, 2:04 pm

edit: oops, topic mismatch. People occasionally call the Everett Hypothesis 'Multiverse' for some reason.


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Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 27 Oct 2011, 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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27 Oct 2011, 2:34 pm

Orwell wrote:
user1001 wrote:
I am a full believer in M theory

It is not appropriate to express "belief" or disbelief in a scientific notion until you have data and evidence.



I'd go so far to say that words like "Belief" and "Faith" does not belong in science. They belong in the dark ages.. that means churches, mosques and synagogues.


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langers
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27 Oct 2011, 7:34 pm

First of all if you have no imagination and no belief in an idea then how would you advance in any way. To truly be a scientist I think that one must guess, predict, assume, dream. If no person thought to explain any thing or experiment even though they did not already have absolute proof we would still be in the stone age!! If your soul purpose is to go around disbelieving in everything and wanting absolute proof for anything before even looking into it you will not get very far. A long time ago nobody believed that the sun was the center of the solar system. Where would we be if everybody said "where's the proof" and nobody tried to find any proof because they did not believe anything else was possible.

Personally I do not know if I believe in multiple universes. I just am not sure. It is quite possible that there are, it is just something I have not looked into very much. On the other hand I do have a very basic understanding of the behavior of subatomic wave/particle properties. I believe that gravity is a emergent property of strong force and weak force, in the same way that "solidity" of our environment is an emergent property of electromagnetic force aka electroweak force. Every sense and experience we have is an "illusion" based on the interactions of wave/particles. The fact that we do not fall through the floor is because of the electromagnetic forces of our mass of particles and the floors mass of particles. There is plenty, even much more then enough, space between the atoms that we should by all means fall right through the floor and yet we do not. The strong and weak forces that interact with and or on the gluons and quarks of the protons and neutrons of the nucleus hold each to each other, the farther the sub-particles get from each other the stronger the force becomes there by pulling the sub-particle with more intensity. this must only act in a determinant area, once the area is breached the force is "broken" or the interaction with the other forces such as the electromagnetic force between the protons and neutrons dominates it the particle can "escape". Perhaps this force is strengthened by the shear number of interacting particles in a massive object such as a planet or star or even the mass of a human (all things have there own gravitational field that is in relation to the mass of the object). In or when you compare the properties of gravity it is quite similar to the properties of strong and weak force. Albeit in the same way that water molecules has the same properties as an ocean. (look at it on the atomic vs macro scale in the way that hydrogen bonds react the same in both or like a lego has the same properties of a building of legos) This simplifies things and usually the simplest answer is the right answer. How this correlates to multiple universes is that it may point to a different way of thinking of things such as dark matter and black holes.

Albert Einstein, Paul Dirac, Murray Gell-Mann, George Zweig, Sheldon Gladshow, Adbus Salam, Steven Weinberg. Just to name a few of the people who have done research and work in these areas.

I think that another thought process that is important would be that as atoms become individualized and lose the elemental properties (separating down to the smallest possible denominator as far as protons neutrons and electron and the other partials that interact) as in expansion the "element" would become a low energy "gas" in which case it would lose volume as long as the particles are kept at a distance that eliminates interaction this would create perfect conditions for a "gravitational" force that supersedes electromagnetic force which could be how black holes work, in this case the big bang could be the culmination of all matter in this way. There is no reason to think that this is the only case, if it is possible to repeat the intake and expansion of the universe then there is no reason why this could not happen somewhere else. I don't know about membrane universes colliding but "bubble" universes make sense.

I don't need to go into all the information provided in the rest of the thread, it's there if you care you can go back and look at it all. NOTHING is absolute in science, gravity does not work EVERYWHERE and classic physics falls apart on the atomic level. It is not dreaming to contemplate the possibilities of the universe, it is science. In the past (less then 100 yrs ago) computers were science fiction, before that horseless carriages, germs, a round earth, atoms, must I go on. A healthy sense of skepticism is only useful in the scientific community if it is directed at experiments to prove, disprove or adjust theories. And a theory in science is ANY explanation of a natural law, E=mc2 is a theory, the gas "laws" are theory's, the earth is round is a theory, any thing that in any way at any time from the big band to the end of time that has any possibility of being disproved is a theory. This is the definition of the scientific approach!

Instead of saying "that sounds like science fiction" or "I don't see any proof" it would be nice if some people would offer something of substance to the discussion. Show me proof it can't be possible or provide a theory to what you believe or disbelieve.



Last edited by langers on 28 Oct 2011, 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jono
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28 Oct 2011, 5:19 pm

Biokinetica wrote:
Here are more research papers than you'll be able to read in a life-time. Clearly, real physicists don't agree with you. The delayed choice quantum eraser is integral in this as well, so don't skip that part. As for your predictions being the only things that matter, you're flat-wrong. That's one portion of the scientific method. Experimental data is just as important.


Oh yes, I think we already know about Young's double slit experiment of which, by the way, the standard Copenhagen interpretation predicts, correctly of course, exactly the same result as MWI. The result of the experiment is just exactly what Schroedinger's equation says should happen, the different interpretations add absolutely nothing to the predictions of the outcome of the experiment.

I'm personally still waiting for a link to a paper that shows an experiment whereby the Copenhagen Interpretation gives a different prediction to the Many Worlds Interpretation and where MWI is corroborated. None of the papers provided by that link satisfy Ruveyn's request, unfortunately.



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28 Oct 2011, 5:49 pm

DeusMechanicus wrote:
ruveyn - Please provide evidence to demonstrate that the hypothesis: "the is multiverse extant" is not the case. Be reminded that this subject is considered theoretical physics.

As for the rest of the thread, there appears to be more banter than empirical reasoning.
It would appear that there is no direct physical evidence that the multiverse exists, rather, it is quite indirect (at the present time).


The burden of proof is on those who claim many worlds actually exists. This his yet to demonstrated empirically. Believed when -seen-.

ruveyn



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28 Oct 2011, 7:37 pm

Ruveyn has been admirably holding the line.

There is no empirical evidence to support any claim for the existence of more than one universe. By this, I mean that there is no valid record of ever having detected, examined, accessed, explored, colonized, traded with, or conquered any alternate realm of existence.

Those who claim otherwise have yet to provide evidence of their claims, because it is up to the claimant to provide their own supporting evidence. Besides which, absence of evidence, while not evidence of absence, is sufficient cause for reasonable doubt, and the complete absence of empirical evidence for the existence of any universe other than our own makes any claim for a "multiverse" exceptionally doubtful. Even those who claim expertise in quantum physics use their versions of the "multiverse" concept as mere tools to explain conflicts in their mathematical models of how the universe operates at the quantum level.

(Yes Ruve, I know that I'm no QM/QT expert, but I do know this much.)

Even if "Lots of people" believe that at least one universe exists outside of our universe, neither the strength of the belief nor the popularity of that belief can validate the belief itself.

Of course, I could be wrong (but that does not mean that I am wrong), so if anyone can open a portal into an alternate universe and allow me to pass through, look around, and come back safely, then I will believe. Otherwise, this topic seems to be more appropriate for the "Speculative Fiction" forum, and not even considered a possible topic of serious theoretical or hypothetical discourse.


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28 Oct 2011, 9:00 pm

langers wrote:
First of all if you have no imagination and no belief in an idea then how would you advance in any way. To truly be a scientist I think that one must guess, predict, assume, dream. If no person thought to explain any thing or experiment even though they did not already have absolute proof we would still be in the stone age!! If your soul purpose is to go around disbelieving in everything and wanting absolute proof for anything before even looking into it you will not get very far. A long time ago nobody believed that the sun was the center of the solar system. Where would we be if everybody said "where's the proof" and nobody tried to find any proof because they did not believe anything else was possible.

Personally I do not know if I believe in multiple universes. I just am not sure. It is quite possible that there are, it is just something I have not looked into very much. On the other hand I do have a very basic understanding of the behavior of subatomic wave/particle properties. I believe that gravity is a emergent property of strong force and weak force, in the same way that "solidity" of our environment is an emergent property of electromagnetic force aka electroweak force. Every sense and experience we have is an "illusion" based on the interactions of wave/particles. The fact that we do not fall through the floor is because of the electromagnetic forces of our mass of particles and the floors mass of particles. There is plenty, even much more then enough, space between the atoms that we should by all means fall right through the floor and yet we do not. The strong and weak forces that interact with and or on the gluons and quarks of the protons and neutrons of the nucleus hold each to each other, the farther the sub-particles get from each other the stronger the force becomes there by pulling the sub-particle with more intensity. this must only act in a determinant area, once the area is breached the force is "broken" or the interaction with the other forces such as the electromagnetic force between the protons and neutrons dominates it the particle can "escape". Perhaps this force is strengthened by the shear number of interacting particles in a massive object such as a planet or star or even the mass of a human (all things have there own gravitational field that is in relation to the mass of the object). In or when you compare the properties of gravity it is quite similar to the properties of strong and weak force. Albeit in the same way that water molecules has the same properties as an ocean. (look at it on the atomic vs macro scale in the way that hydrogen bonds react the same in both or like a lego has the same properties of a building of legos) This simplifies things and usually the simplest answer is the right answer. How this correlates to multiple universes is that it may point to a different way of thinking of things such as dark matter and black holes.

Albert Einstein, Paul Dirac, Murray Gell-Mann, George Zweig, Sheldon Gladshow, Adbus Salam, Steven Weinberg. Just to name a few of the people who have done research and work in these areas.

I think that another thought process that is important would be that as atoms become individualized and lose the elemental properties (separating down to the smallest possible denominator as far as protons neutrons and electron and the other partials that interact) as in expansion the "element" would become a low energy "gas" in which case it would lose volume as long as the particles are kept at a distance that eliminates interaction this would create perfect conditions for a "gravitational" force that supersedes electromagnetic force which could be how black holes work, in this case the big bang could be the culmination of all matter in this way. There is no reason to think that this is the only case, if it is possible to repeat the intake and expansion of the universe then there is no reason why this could not happen somewhere else. I don't know about membrane universes colliding but "bubble" universes make sense.

I don't need to go into all the information provided in the rest of the thread, it's there if you care you can go back and look at it all. NOTHING is absolute in science, gravity does not work EVERYWHERE and classic physics falls apart on the atomic level. It is not dreaming to contemplate the possibilities of the universe, it is science. In the past (less then 100 yrs ago) computers were science fiction, before that horseless carriages, germs, a round earth, atoms, must I go on. A healthy sense of skepticism is only useful in the scientific community if it is directed at experiments to prove, disprove or adjust theories. And a theory in science is ANY explanation of a natural law, E=mc2 is a theory, the gas "laws" are theory's, the earth is round is a theory, any thing that in any way at any time from the big band to the end of time that has any possibility of being disproved is a theory. This is the definition of the scientific approach!

Instead of saying "that sounds like science fiction" or "I don't see any proof" it would be nice if some people would offer something of substance to the discussion. Show me proof it can't be possible or provide a theory to what you believe or disbelieve.