Do you think that the universe is infinite in size?

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Do you think that the universe is infinite in size?
Yes 53%  53%  [ 20 ]
No 47%  47%  [ 18 ]
Total votes : 38

malithion2
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17 Sep 2008, 11:41 pm

Well, that ignores that the inflationary phase of expansion may have exceeded the speed of light (space can expand at whatever speed it wants too), and on top of that, oddly, wikipedia claims that the universe is actually much larger than that. One of their sources is Constraining the Topology of the Universe, which says:
Quote:
For a wide class of models, the nondetection rules out the possibility that we live in a universe with topology scale smaller than 24 Gpc.

where Gpc is billions of parsecs.

This has something to do with the fact the univere's expansion or something. For example, I would suspect that although we may be seeing light emitted 14 billion years ago, what emitted that light has since had plenty of time to get much farther away than that. Although I'm not sure if that is the correct explanation

I think space is still limited by the speed of light, if space expanded at or in excess of light speed there would be no lights, the radiation would red shift to non existence. I wouldn't trust wiki but either way that still states a finite size of the universe +- of 24Gpc's. Plus the big bang was a one time event, it only exists in the past.



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17 Sep 2008, 11:42 pm

chever wrote:
Yes


Sorry this has become a highly quoted thread.



Adrenaline
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17 Sep 2008, 11:43 pm

OK, lets take a big step back and look at the whole picture. we just found an energy form that has temporal property's, basically you do something too it here and it affects a medium that it passed or is going to pass through on the other side of our world instantly if not at times before.

considering that this energy is susceptible to the universes and atomic magnetic fields then its boundaries would only exist in that of the total of our big bang from start to finish. it would be affected in all time zones of the existence of our universe as it passes through them. think of it as an invisible magnetic field that travels time.

then also add to this that many such energy units travel space as far as it can go in a striate line before some kind of gravity pulls it back, now with it travailing time, even so minute, its distances it can travel would be huge, so huge it seems it would leave or universe altogether, now if this is possible then there would be nothing for it to gravitate back too other then more of its own kind, given enough of this in an infinite amount of time I am sure it could grow in to quite a whole new universe all its own.

so the question would or should be, with the boundaries of our universe based on our perceived matters and energy's,
and our energy's reaching far beyond our known comprehensions, what are we going to consider our actual boundaries?
that of soled matter? or shall we include the radiations that hallo our known universe?



Last edited by Adrenaline on 17 Sep 2008, 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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17 Sep 2008, 11:45 pm

Y'know there are a couple of microbes in my gut at this very moment asking the same kinds of questions about what lies beyond Pete. 8O



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17 Sep 2008, 11:50 pm

malithion2 wrote:
Well, that ignores that the inflationary phase of expansion may have exceeded the speed of light (space can expand at whatever speed it wants too), and on top of that, oddly, wikipedia claims that the universe is actually much larger than that. One of their sources is Constraining the Topology of the Universe, which says:
Quote:
For a wide class of models, the nondetection rules out the possibility that we live in a universe with topology scale smaller than 24 Gpc.

where Gpc is billions of parsecs.

This has something to do with the fact the univere's expansion or something. For example, I would suspect that although we may be seeing light emitted 14 billion years ago, what emitted that light has since had plenty of time to get much farther away than that. Although I'm not sure if that is the correct explanation

I think space is still limited by the speed of light, if space expanded at or in excess of light speed there would be no lights, the radiation would red shift to non existence. I wouldn't trust wiki but either way that still states a finite size of the universe +- of 24Gpc's. Plus the big bang was a one time event, it only exists in the past.

Well, yes the universe may well be finite, but my point is that this is not obvious. And it isn't a matter of trusting wiki; aside from the fact that their sources are traceable, I also rarely cite them for something unless I've heard it elsewhere. Anyway, my first point makes plenty of sense; since what we see 14 billion lightyears away is the past, the size of the universe must exceed that of the visible by the amount the visible universe would have expanded in the time it has taken the light to get here.

Now, as for whether or not the expansion of the universe has exceeded the speed of light in the past, this is something I have heard quite frequently, although I suppose I'll have to go dig up a source to prove it to you sometime...


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17 Sep 2008, 11:54 pm

slowmutant wrote:
chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense


I think it does. If you think of the whole universe as just a galaxy surrounded by empty void.

well, I think it makes sense IF the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with the big bang, then logically it cannot be infinite.


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malithion2
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17 Sep 2008, 11:55 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Y'know there are a couple of microbes in my gut at this very moment asking the same kinds of questions about what lies beyond Pete. 8O


I can only imagine! A good analogy can be made from that I think though.



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17 Sep 2008, 11:56 pm

Quote:
well, I think it makes sense if the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with a big bang, then logically it can't be infinite.


Ahh, yes, but can we be absolutely certain about the age of the universe? It's not exactly like carbon-dating a clay pot, is it?



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17 Sep 2008, 11:57 pm

greenblue wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
chever wrote:
twoshots wrote:
If this is ambiguous, I am trying to say the universe can in fact be both infinite and expanding.


This makes no sense


I think it does. If you think of the whole universe as just a galaxy surrounded by empty void.

well, I think it makes sense IF the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with the big bang, then logically it cannot be infinite.


Precisely!



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17 Sep 2008, 11:58 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
well, I think it makes sense if the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with a big bang, then logically it can't be infinite.


Ahh, yes, but can we be absolutely certain about the age of the universe? It's not exactly like carbon-dating a clay pot, is it?


No it's not like a clay pot, but using distance we can infer age.



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18 Sep 2008, 12:00 am

slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
well, I think it makes sense if the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with a big bang, then logically it can't be infinite.


Ahh, yes, but can we be absolutely certain about the age of the universe? It's not exactly like carbon-dating a clay pot, is it?

It really doesn't matter how old is the universe, but implying that it had a beginning, the issue is that if the universe is infinite then its age would be infinite as well.


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18 Sep 2008, 12:04 am

greenblue wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
well, I think it makes sense if the universe had no origin and its age is infinite, but if the universe originated with a big bang, then logically it can't be infinite.


Ahh, yes, but can we be absolutely certain about the age of the universe? It's not exactly like carbon-dating a clay pot, is it?

It really doesn't matter how old is the universe, but implying that it had a beginning, the issue is that if the universe is infinite then its age would be infinite as well.

Well, no. That doesn't follow at all. The universe's expansion could have been infinite at some point, or the universe may have begun infinite.


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18 Sep 2008, 12:04 am

One of the things I wonder is if since a collapsing universe would create many black holes and then one big singularity,
and it would take such a singularity to even conceive of pulling all energy and matter back, and since this would also distort time, I keep wondering if what the big bang actually was is where it all gets pulled back and the temporal distortions do not release its energy's until it goes forward or back enough in time that there is nothing left then releases it all at once in one big bang, therefore there would be nothing exploding when the big bang went off other then the release of the energy's that got shoved back or forward through time.
.



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18 Sep 2008, 12:05 am

Adrenaline wrote:
OK, lets take a big step back and look at the whole picture. we just found an energy form that has temporal property's, basically you do something too it here and it affects a medium that it passed or is going to pass through on the other side of our world instantly if not at times before.

considering that this energy is susceptible to the universes and atomic magnetic fields then its boundaries would only exist in that of the total of our big bang from start to finish. it would be affected in all time zones of the existence of our universe as it passes through them. think of it as an invisible magnetic field that travels time.

then also add to this that many such energy units travel space as far as it can go in a striate line before some kind of gravity pulls it back, now with it travailing time, even so minute, its distances it can travel would be huge, so huge it seems it would leave or universe altogether, now if this is possible then there would be nothing for it to gravitate back too other then more of its own kind, given enough of this in an infinite amount of time I am sure it could grow in to quite a whole new universe all its own.

so the question would or should be, with the boundaries of our universe based on our perceived matters and energy's,
and our energy's reaching far beyond our known comprehensions, what are we going to consider our actual boundaries?
that of soled matter? or shall we include the radiations that hallo our known universe?


What does this even mean.


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18 Sep 2008, 12:07 am

You have to squint when you read it.



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18 Sep 2008, 12:12 am

slowmutant wrote:
I think there could be other universes parallel to this one.

"Whatever can happen does happen, in separate quantum realities ..." (ST:TNG)

I agree asplanet is parallel 8O

But being serious I agree whatever happens does happen, no one really knows for sure... be boring if we did :alien: and like to think as slowmutant put it the "whole universe as just a galaxy surrounded by empty void" I enjoy the endless discussions, with many theories anyway :wink:


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