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Faster then light

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androbot2084
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20 Nov 2011, 2:46 am

When traveling at the speed of light, time according to the ships clock stops so it does not take any time at all to travel infinite distances so this in effect becomes the equivalent of traveling at infinite speeds and the crew will not age. However according to Earth's clocks the ship is traveling at the speed of light and will take 100,000 years to span the Milky Way so by the time the crew gets back to Earth all their relatives would have died ages ago.



rdos
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20 Nov 2011, 7:31 am

Jono wrote:
rdos wrote:
I think it is possible for non-electromagenetic stuff to travel faster than light, and the weight increase of particles in accelerators is only due to a massive build-up of electromagnetic energy as they accelerate the particle. OTOH, we cannot use electromagnetic fields to accelerate particles above the speed of light for obvious reasons.


Nonsense, where do you get this idea that special relativistic effects are due to electromagnetic fields and if that were the case then how do you explain the Michealson-Morley experiment. There is no ether, so the Earth was not moving through anything when the Michaelson-Morley experiment was done.


I didn't say there was an ether, just that experiments in accelerators reflect electromagnetic properties and don't necesarily generalize to non-electromagnetic materia. It is kind of the same thing as if you use sound-waves to infer that nothing can travel faster than sound because sound-waves cannot. This was disproved as jet-engines was developped. If there was another way than electromagnetic fields to accelerate materia, we might find that they can be accelerated to any speed.



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20 Nov 2011, 8:06 am

androbot2084 wrote:
When traveling at the speed of light, time according to the ships clock stops so it does not take any time at all to travel infinite distances so this in effect becomes the equivalent of traveling at infinite speeds and the crew will not age. However according to Earth's clocks the ship is traveling at the speed of light and will take 100,000 years to span the Milky Way so by the time the crew gets back to Earth all their relatives would have died ages ago.


Aboard a ship clocks appear to be acting normally. The time that is local to the moving body is called proper time in the interval. For observers outside the ship the clocks aboard the ship appear to be moving slowly in relation to their clocks.

ruveyn



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20 Nov 2011, 12:05 pm

rdos wrote:
Jono wrote:
rdos wrote:
I think it is possible for non-electromagenetic stuff to travel faster than light, and the weight increase of particles in accelerators is only due to a massive build-up of electromagnetic energy as they accelerate the particle. OTOH, we cannot use electromagnetic fields to accelerate particles above the speed of light for obvious reasons.


Nonsense, where do you get this idea that special relativistic effects are due to electromagnetic fields and if that were the case then how do you explain the Michealson-Morley experiment. There is no ether, so the Earth was not moving through anything when the Michaelson-Morley experiment was done.


I didn't say there was an ether, just that experiments in accelerators reflect electromagnetic properties and don't necesarily generalize to non-electromagnetic materia. It is kind of the same thing as if you use sound-waves to infer that nothing can travel faster than sound because sound-waves cannot. This was disproved as jet-engines was developped. If there was another way than electromagnetic fields to accelerate materia, we might find that they can be accelerated to any speed.


You completely misunderstand why we say that nothing can travel faster than light. There was never any theoretical reason why anything, at least in principle, could travel faster than sound but there is a theoretical reason why nothing can travel faster than light.



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20 Nov 2011, 1:04 pm

Oodain wrote:
Jono wrote:
Tadzio wrote:
rdos wrote:
I think it is possible for non-electromagenetic stuff to travel faster than light, and the weight increase of particles in accelerators is only due to a massive build-up of electromagnetic energy as they accelerate the particle. OTOH, we cannot use electromagnetic fields to accelerate particles above the speed of light for obvious reasons.


A simple shadow can move accross a surface faster than the speed of light, as can a point of light. Many quantum phenomena seem to move faster than the speed of light also.


A shadow is not a massive object so there are no physical laws broken by shadows moving faster than light. Also no, quantum entanglement cannot be used to send information faster than light. There is no violation of anything in special relativity with either of those things.

i was under the impression that you can in fact send information using quantum entanglement but not actual matter,
(send is a misleading term as nothing goes anywhere)


No, in quantum entanglement, information is not actually "sent". It can not actually be used for faster-than-light communication for instance.



Oodain
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20 Nov 2011, 1:57 pm

Jono wrote:
Oodain wrote:
Jono wrote:
Tadzio wrote:
rdos wrote:
I think it is possible for non-electromagenetic stuff to travel faster than light, and the weight increase of particles in accelerators is only due to a massive build-up of electromagnetic energy as they accelerate the particle. OTOH, we cannot use electromagnetic fields to accelerate particles above the speed of light for obvious reasons.


A simple shadow can move accross a surface faster than the speed of light, as can a point of light. Many quantum phenomena seem to move faster than the speed of light also.


A shadow is not a massive object so there are no physical laws broken by shadows moving faster than light. Also no, quantum entanglement cannot be used to send information faster than light. There is no violation of anything in special relativity with either of those things.

i was under the impression that you can in fact send information using quantum entanglement but not actual matter,
(send is a misleading term as nothing goes anywhere)


No, in quantum entanglement, information is not actually "sent". It can not actually be used for faster-than-light communication for instance.


it would seem you are right,
they need another channel to compare their measurements for it to be functional,


did i get this right?
it would seem that if you create two entangled particles and they are seperated they will in fact present FTL capabilities, however since they would need to be moved there by ordinary means they would not violate causality.
or is it because it i flat out impossible (but what about quantum teleportation, that has been proven to move information about a particle)


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20 Nov 2011, 2:30 pm

rdos wrote:
If there was another way than electromagnetic fields to accelerate materia, we might find that they can be accelerated to any speed.

There are other ways to accelerate particles. Very fast moving particles are seen in nature, and I find it very difficult to believe that between cosmic rays and the various experiments with nuclear weapons that your hypothesis is correct and yet nobody noticed.

Jono wrote:
No, in quantum entanglement, information is not actually "sent". It can not actually be used for faster-than-light communication for instance.

How do you know this?


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rdos
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20 Nov 2011, 5:26 pm

Jono wrote:
You completely misunderstand why we say that nothing can travel faster than light. There was never any theoretical reason why anything, at least in principle, could travel faster than sound but there is a theoretical reason why nothing can travel faster than light.


The theory why nothing can travel faster than light is faulty, so that makes it similar.



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20 Nov 2011, 6:06 pm

rdos wrote:
Jono wrote:
You completely misunderstand why we say that nothing can travel faster than light. There was never any theoretical reason why anything, at least in principle, could travel faster than sound but there is a theoretical reason why nothing can travel faster than light.


The theory why nothing can travel faster than light is faulty, so that makes it similar.


i would like you to showhow to acelerate actual matter higher than the speed of light wihtout using exotic science or bending space around the object (though technically you are not accelerating the object in that case)
there is the alcubierre field equations but they rely on negative energy, something we barely know what is yet, it might be possible but not untill that crucial breakthrough.
we always have to make an assumption to make it happen.


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Tollorin
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20 Nov 2011, 10:35 pm

rdos wrote:
Jono wrote:
You completely misunderstand why we say that nothing can travel faster than light. There was never any theoretical reason why anything, at least in principle, could travel faster than sound but there is a theoretical reason why nothing can travel faster than light.


The theory why nothing can travel faster than light is faulty, so that makes it similar.

The theory is not faulty, more likely the neutrino are "cheating" through some unknow physic.


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rdos
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21 Nov 2011, 3:47 am

Oodain wrote:
rdos wrote:
Jono wrote:
You completely misunderstand why we say that nothing can travel faster than light. There was never any theoretical reason why anything, at least in principle, could travel faster than sound but there is a theoretical reason why nothing can travel faster than light.


The theory why nothing can travel faster than light is faulty, so that makes it similar.


i would like you to showhow to acelerate actual matter higher than the speed of light wihtout using exotic science or bending space around the object (though technically you are not accelerating the object in that case)
there is the alcubierre field equations but they rely on negative energy, something we barely know what is yet, it might be possible but not untill that crucial breakthrough.
we always have to make an assumption to make it happen.


We have gravity and black holes. A black hole could accelerate particles above the speed of light, but it might be kind of hard to measure since they would normally become absorbed by the black hole.



Oodain
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21 Nov 2011, 6:17 am

rdos wrote:
Oodain wrote:
rdos wrote:
Jono wrote:
You completely misunderstand why we say that nothing can travel faster than light. There was never any theoretical reason why anything, at least in principle, could travel faster than sound but there is a theoretical reason why nothing can travel faster than light.


The theory why nothing can travel faster than light is faulty, so that makes it similar.


i would like you to showhow to acelerate actual matter higher than the speed of light wihtout using exotic science or bending space around the object (though technically you are not accelerating the object in that case)
there is the alcubierre field equations but they rely on negative energy, something we barely know what is yet, it might be possible but not untill that crucial breakthrough.
we always have to make an assumption to make it happen.


We have gravity and black holes. A black hole could accelerate particles above the speed of light, but it might be kind of hard to measure since they would normally become absorbed by the black hole.


prove it,

the reason light cannot escape is not because of the speed of anything, but the sheer gravitational distortion of spacetime itself,


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