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techstepgenr8tion
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21 Jan 2013, 3:22 am

Linguistically a bit shaky but I think I understood that.

Some people believe at least some of the anecdotal evidence (ie. the right set of videos or the right case studies), so its tracing it - at least hypothetically - from being a 'given' and working backward.

Its not the only thing or group of things in the world that defies explanation and keeps resurfacing either. It ties into a lot of those as well.



techstepgenr8tion
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21 Jan 2013, 3:35 am

To exploit your analogy its not 1+1 = 3, its 1+ x =3 where x is unknown to mainstream science as of yet and those who don't believe that there's enough evidence that there's such a thing as 3 or any such equation as 1 + 2 are actively telling the people who would suggest the possibility that x = 2 or that 3 exists that they need to stop smoking dope and listening to Pink Floyd.



eric76
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21 Jan 2013, 4:01 am

We know that if 1+x=3, then x=2.

What is being argued by some is that the impossible becomes possible through greater technology. Thus, it is as if they were arguing that 1+1=3 with advanced technology that we don't have.



ripped
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21 Jan 2013, 7:10 am

eric76 wrote:
There you go again - the argument from incredulity mentioned earlier.

Our best information about the Universe is that the speed of light is a maximum speed. The theory bears it out as well as all the experimental evidence. An object cannot accelerate to the speed of light, much less past the speed of light. The notion that there are exceptions that will let someone travel faster than light is completely implausible.


They said similar about the Wright brothers. "Man will never fly!"



ripped
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21 Jan 2013, 7:12 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Lol, have you noticed that we *are* sixteenth century Conquistadors trying to imagine a jumbo airplane? ALL of us? If we had such technology publicly available we wouldn't call these things UFO's.


It isn't public and it wont be available any time soon.



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21 Jan 2013, 10:41 am

ruveyn wrote:
Why would any alien travel millions of kalikams just to visit us. That does not make much sense. ruveyn

Especially when the cheapest bottle of tranjac sells for no less than 40 quatloos.


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techstepgenr8tion
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21 Jan 2013, 11:30 am

eric76 wrote:
We know that if 1+x=3, then x=2.

What is being argued by some is that the impossible becomes possible through greater technology. Thus, it is as if they were arguing that 1+1=3 with advanced technology that we don't have.

Mmmm..no. You're saying that x can only be 1. I think you and if I remember right Fnord said it right earlier, to insinuate at all that there is any means possible, no matter what the technology level, to bypass the speed of light by bending space, transferring by other means, etc. is an argument from incredulity because in 2013 we don't have the know-how to do that. So therefore it is being told to the people who believe that in 1 + x =3 that x could = 2 that they're smoking too much dope and listening to too much Pink Floyd.

I'm not telling you that you're right or wrong, I'm just telling to know the strengths and weaknesses of your own argument.



eric76
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21 Jan 2013, 11:44 am

Ahh, but we do know how to bend space. All it takes is a gravitational mass. That's not going to help anyone exceed the speed of light, though.

There is one and only one known way for object in space to travel apart faster than the speed of light and that is for them to be so far away from each other that the space between them is expanding that fast. Note that in such a case that there is no acceleration of either object, it is purely due to the expansion of space. Also note that any two such objects will never be able to detect each other, much less meet, unless the universe were to collapse. I think that the distance they would have to be apart is thought to be on the order of twenty five billion light years.

Obviously, this is completely useless for going to visit other stars.

As far as the 1+x=3, we do know that x=2. What you are arguing is that with greater technological knowledge and advancements, that x could be something other than 2.



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21 Jan 2013, 11:48 am

eric76 wrote:
Ahh, but we do know how to bend space. All it takes is a gravitational mass. That's not going to help anyone exceed the speed of light, though.

There is one and only one known way for object points in space to travel apart faster than the speed of light and that is for them to be so far away from each other that the space between them is expanding that fast. Note that in such a case that there is no acceleration of either object, it is purely due to the expansion of space. Also note that any two such objects will never be able to detect each other, much less meet, unless the universe were to collapse. I think that the distance they would have to be apart is thought to be on the order of twenty five billion light years.

Obviously, this is completely useless for going to visit other stars.

Glad I could help you come up with a breezy algebraic expression to sum this up.

To collapse the excess words I put in it: 1+x=y where y is purported to only be 2.



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21 Jan 2013, 1:09 pm

However, it does completely ignore my point.

The argument for at least some UFOs to be spacecraft from other star systems with aliens on board, you have to make massive rewrites of physics. That is like assuming that while to us 1+1=2, to a sufficiently advanced alien civilization, 1+1=3 (or some number other than 2). The argument is usually made by spouting off buzzwords of which the speaker has, at best, a very flawed understanding and often has no understanding of them at all.

Talking of bending space is hilarious. Even if it were actually possible to bend space, that bending of space would still propagate at the speed of light, not faster, and certainly not infinitely fast.



techstepgenr8tion
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21 Jan 2013, 1:13 pm

eric76 wrote:
However, it does completely ignore my point.

The argument for at least some UFOs to be spacecraft from other star systems with aliens on board, you have to make massive rewrites of physics. That is like assuming that while to us 1+1=2, to a sufficiently advanced alien civilization, 1+1=3 (or some number other than 2). The argument is usually made by spouting off buzzwords of which the speaker has, at best, a very flawed understanding and often has no understanding of them at all.

Talking of bending space is hilarious. Even if it were actually possible to bend space, that bending of space would still propagate at the speed of light, not faster, and certainly not infinitely fast.

No, it doesn't at all ignore your point. What you're claiming is that we know all the components and properties of space at this point and hence its a completed equation. CERN is a pretty expensive blunder in that case.



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21 Jan 2013, 1:22 pm

I don't claim at all that we know everything. What I claim is that what we know puts limits on what we do not know. For example, what we do not know is not going to be able to puth a spacecraft past the speed of light.



techstepgenr8tion
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21 Jan 2013, 1:45 pm

We're still breaking apart the components of space and baryonic matter to see what it even is. Finding Higgs/Boson was a big achievement but there's still so much we have yet to nail down or really figure out.

While its on an unrelated and unquantified tip, there are scientists, people quite close to this stuff, who suggest things like string theory or even suggest a holographic nature of reality (ie. space and time being illusory). The number of such scientists particularly at higher levels are increasing rather than deceasing which shouldn't happen if it isn't fitting the shape of their experiences in dealing with QM or if it were some type of hippy-dippy quackery.

That's not to say that increasing numbers of scientists wondering about something without a falsifiable experiment makes it true. I'm just trying to find a spot on the map of knowledge to where we are right now and identify our positioning between what we know and what we don't know. Sometimes I get the impression that people who would demand that we all assume that at any given 'now' moment that we're at the end of science have difficulties assessing what it is that's still unknown. I think part of that is when you research and bury yourself in one side of things its a bit like highway hypnosis, one thing becomes your whole world and reading the known all day causes one to sort of be hypnotized into feeling like the unknown is synonymous with the fictional. One has to remember that's not reality though - its more a structural cognitive problem of human memory, presence and adaptation to reality; ie. three pounds of grey matter doesn't seem like its enough for a person to hyper-focus professionally on something and not have it impact their perceptual balance.



techstepgenr8tion
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21 Jan 2013, 1:49 pm

I guess what I'm saying - if any of these UFO's are both a) not hoax and b) alien visitors, we have to throw the limits that we think we know out the window. That's a big 'if' but that's what we're looking at.



ripped
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21 Jan 2013, 5:54 pm

Research into quantum entanglement is the first step: Discovery of the mechanism that causes entanglement
i.e. instantaneous energy transmission.
Perception of the phenomena of quantum fields ( of which magnetism is one ) is a promising line of research as well.



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21 Jan 2013, 6:12 pm

ripped wrote:
Research into quantum entanglement is the first step: Discovery of the mechanism that causes entanglement
i.e. instantaneous energy transmission.


There is not an iota of experimental proof that either energy or information is transferred in these entanglement schemes. The only thank for sure is that there are no "hidden variables" to account for the correlation of quantum states. The tests of Bell's Inequality show that quantum theory predicts the correlation correctly.

Still no faster than light transmission of information. Please write to us if you find a corroborated instance of an FTL Morse Lamp.

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