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LordoftheMonkeys
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04 Dec 2010, 7:47 pm

WikiLeaks was just attacked by the government after releasing a series of classified U.S. government documents. It was kicked off of the Amazon servers and the original DNS provider stopped supporting it, so wikileaks.org is inaccessible, but you can still get to the site through wikileaks.ch (I checked). I am siding with WikiLeaks on this issue. I realize that releasing classified information can potentially jeoprodize national security, but on the other hand I think that a ban on WikiLeaks would set a precedent for censorship on the internet. What are your thoughts?


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04 Dec 2010, 8:07 pm

The concept of WikiLeaks is a sound one, and the current attacks on the website show that the US and the other governments worldwide are really afraid of what will be or has been released. I do support some of their principles. We do need a website, or several, that watches the watchmen.

But then again, I don't think that WikiLeaks' actual modus operandi is really that sound. They don't seem to give a flying one for the consequences of their actions, except when it directly affects them.

I think that one of the problems with WikiLeaks compared to, say, investigative journalism, is that investigative journalism tends to consider the consequences of their actions. Releasing all of these documents and expecting not to get burned suggests either naivety or apathy of the consequences.

Are these guys terrorists? Of course not. Are they criminals? Depends. Personally, and from my limited knowledge of the situation, I think that they are more quixotic agent provocateurs who don't understand that they may be causing more trouble for people who don't deserve it. And I'm not talking about governments here. Many governments deserve a kick up the arse every now and again. It's the people on the ground. I heard that there are some named human rights activists who will be targeted thanks to WikiLeaks' carelessness.

The point to be made here is that of responsibility and accountability. Both governments around the world and WikiLeaks must learn to take responsibility for their own actions.


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DemonAbyss10
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04 Dec 2010, 8:24 pm

Quatermass wrote:
The concept of WikiLeaks is a sound one, and the current attacks on the website show that the US and the other governments worldwide are really afraid of what will be or has been released. I do support some of their principles. We do need a website, or several, that watches the watchmen.

But then again, I don't think that WikiLeaks' actual modus operandi is really that sound. They don't seem to give a flying one for the consequences of their actions, except when it directly affects them.

I think that one of the problems with WikiLeaks compared to, say, investigative journalism, is that investigative journalism tends to consider the consequences of their actions. Releasing all of these documents and expecting not to get burned suggests either naivety or apathy of the consequences.

Are these guys terrorists? Of course not. Are they criminals? Depends. Personally, and from my limited knowledge of the situation, I think that they are more quixotic agent provocateurs who don't understand that they may be causing more trouble for people who don't deserve it. And I'm not talking about governments here. Many governments deserve a kick up the arse every now and again. It's the people on the ground. I heard that there are some named human rights activists who will be targeted thanks to WikiLeaks' carelessness.

The point to be made here is that of responsibility and accountability. Both governments around the world and WikiLeaks must learn to take responsibility for their own actions.



Sometimes the only way to truly instigate change is to set fire to the hornets nest.


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04 Dec 2010, 8:30 pm

DemonAbyss10 wrote:
Sometimes the only way to truly instigate change is to set fire to the hornets nest.


Name one time where it was change for the better. In the political arena, I mean.


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Titangeek
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04 Dec 2010, 8:31 pm

DemonAbyss10 wrote:
Quatermass wrote:
The concept of WikiLeaks is a sound one, and the current attacks on the website show that the US and the other governments worldwide are really afraid of what will be or has been released. I do support some of their principles. We do need a website, or several, that watches the watchmen.

But then again, I don't think that WikiLeaks' actual modus operandi is really that sound. They don't seem to give a flying one for the consequences of their actions, except when it directly affects them.

I think that one of the problems with WikiLeaks compared to, say, investigative journalism, is that investigative journalism tends to consider the consequences of their actions. Releasing all of these documents and expecting not to get burned suggests either naivety or apathy of the consequences.

Are these guys terrorists? Of course not. Are they criminals? Depends. Personally, and from my limited knowledge of the situation, I think that they are more quixotic agent provocateurs who don't understand that they may be causing more trouble for people who don't deserve it. And I'm not talking about governments here. Many governments deserve a kick up the arse every now and again. It's the people on the ground. I heard that there are some named human rights activists who will be targeted thanks to WikiLeaks' carelessness.

The point to be made here is that of responsibility and accountability. Both governments around the world and WikiLeaks must learn to take responsibility for their own actions.



Sometimes the only way to truly instigate change is to set fire to the hornets nest.


yes, but when you do that you (and more than likely those around you) will get stung


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conan
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04 Dec 2010, 8:41 pm

DemonAbyss10 wrote:

Sometimes the only way to truly instigate change is to set fire to the hornets nest.


i think i agree in this case. they gotta keep the momentum though



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04 Dec 2010, 9:28 pm

Sorry, folks, but this is not a free speech issue. Wikileaks is not expressing a personal viewpoint.

They are, however, publishing documents that they KNOW to be stolen. As those documents do not belong to them, they are guilty of theft by receiving just for being in possession of them. Publishing documents that do not belong to you without express written permission is an international crime, whether those documents are classified or not. Everyone associated with Wikileaks should be prosecuted for that, no matter what the documents say, or whether publishing their contents endangers anyone.

Aside from that, accepting possession of classified documents stolen from a national government is almost certainly punishable as international espionage. The folks at Wikileaks should be as concerned about Interpol as they are about the CIA.


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04 Dec 2010, 9:42 pm

I think it doesn't deserve a beauty award in how to reach the goal of global transparency (reading between the lines here), but does break taboo although in a very crude way.

If it's the only way to do it, I don't think so. Does it attract attention? Oh hell yes.

In the long run it's going to work counterproductive - it's going to be harder for countries to trust eachother, whistleblowers to get information out because of increased security, ammunition for pro-censorship, and so on and so on.


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auntblabby
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04 Dec 2010, 11:02 pm

a rare look at america's dirty laundry. and what they [US] said about canada is inexcusable.



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04 Dec 2010, 11:08 pm

Avengilante wrote:
Sorry, folks, but this is not a free speech issue. Wikileaks is not expressing a personal viewpoint.

They are, however, publishing documents that they KNOW to be stolen. As those documents do not belong to them, they are guilty of theft by receiving just for being in possession of them. Publishing documents that do not belong to you without express written permission is an international crime, whether those documents are classified or not. Everyone associated with Wikileaks should be prosecuted for that, no matter what the documents say, or whether publishing their contents endangers anyone.

Aside from that, accepting possession of classified documents stolen from a national government is almost certainly punishable as international espionage. The folks at Wikileaks should be as concerned about Interpol as they are about the CIA.

And what is your stance on the New York Times, the Guardian, Der Spiegel, Le Monde, and El Pais? All of those newspapers are in possession of the leaked documents and have been publishing them. And literally every other news source in the Western world which has been picking up and republishing reports of those documents? Are you in favor of prosecuting and jailing the entire media?

No? Then shut it. Wikileaks is just a convenient scapegoat for censors and fascists to get a foot in the door in the bogus name of "national security." You wanna prosecute the leaker, fine—but the freedom of the press has to be upheld if modern civilization is to survive.


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05 Dec 2010, 12:24 am

Wikileaks is too much of rebellious teenagers throwing rocks at the establishment, but definitely a necessary counterpoint to Fox News and MSNBC.
Too bad theres just about nothing in between.
The powers that be have been masters of the media for at least the past couple decades, they understand well the principal of divide and conquer.
Pit Fox vs. MSNBC in a 24 hour pissing match, keep people polarized, and keep news out of the news.
I mean nobody from the Bush administration has so much as gone before a judge?
We need something like Wikileaks, but they shouldn't be dropping shedloads of documents that mostly amount to international gossip. If you're going to leak classified information, there should damn well be some serious meat on the bones, or you're not really doing anything but pissing away much needed credibility.



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05 Dec 2010, 1:05 am

Well, the only way to successfully leak information on a government that doesn't care about their actions is to be a whistle blower group that doesn't care about their actions. Being a traditional investigative journalist doesn't work when the people that own all the media outlets are the same people causing all the problems that WikiLeaks describes. So as far as leaking information on this, the only way to do it is to fight fire with fire. Doesn't mean that there is a difference between them, but moral high ground aside, if you want information released, that's the only way.

Assange may be an ass, but at least he is doing something, however questionable. Then again, it means nothing to leak information to a population too self-absorbed to pay attention to anything outside of their iPod Touch Phone screen.



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05 Dec 2010, 5:10 am

WikiLeaks are free press, they need to be protected.

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IaC5bsndDI[/youtube]



richie
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05 Dec 2010, 4:27 pm

Go after WikiLeaks or a free press after it is proven that actual harm has been caused by their actions, not before.


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05 Dec 2010, 4:49 pm

Shut 'em down.


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LordoftheMonkeys
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05 Dec 2010, 10:13 pm

According to Ars Technica, several people are comparing Julian Assange to Osama Bin Laden and calling for his assassination. I wonder if he will be the next Mohandas Gandhi or the next Martin Luther King Jr. That is what he is shaping out to be: a fighter for freedom that establishment is trying to off. Personally I think he deserves a Nobel Peace Prize for what he is doing and what he is willing to stand up against. It takes a lot of courage to fight against the system and absolutely none to enforce it.

Information is the world's most valuable resource, and the internet is the hub of all information.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win.


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