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You opinion on directed panspermia:
Yay 40%  40%  [ 2 ]
Nay 60%  60%  [ 3 ]
Don't care 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 5

puddingmouse
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25 Feb 2011, 3:35 pm

Apologies if this has ever been discussed before - I normally post on PPR, and was going to post this on there.

If life on earth is going to become extinct, should humans set out to be agents of panspermia.

Panspermia refers to the idea that life on different planets is 'seeded' by organisms from other planets. If humans send out billions of spacecraft (with solar sails, so they can travel for a LONG time) containing bacteria, we could potentially 'seed' other planets and start evolutionary chains there.

The question is: should we and why?

I think it is a good idea because as much as I love space opera, humans will never achieve faster-than-light travel that would enable us to reach other solar systems without using wormholes, plus our bodies are really not built for extended space travel. Also, life itself may rely on panspermia to continue. We may ourselves be the product of directed panspermia. I think this is more likely than God having done it.

There's the issue of whether we should interfere with the biosphere of another planet (when that planet might already have life on it). I think that is a real issue, but we have no way of knowing if life is already on these other Earth-like planets and it's a risk that's ultimately worth taking when faced with the extinction of life on Earth.

I think cyanobacteria would be the best bet because they make their own oxygen, and maybe some extremophiles.

We'll never know the results, but that's kind of what I like about it. It's hard to describe, but I like how it's a gamble. I have thought that maybe it's pointless, in the way that life itself is sort of pointless. Yes, it is pointless, but we are drawn to life and maintaining life, despite its pointlessness. We have been looking for life elsewhere in the universe for years and this is just an extension of that - setting out the spread life in the universe.



AstroGeek
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25 Feb 2011, 4:54 pm

Hmm. Interesting. I really don't see much point unless it seems that life rare. If we find no other life in our solar system or, after observing the atmospheres of many, MANY exoplanets and we don't see any signs of life in other solar systems then I think it would be reasonable to attempt this. Of course, it would be very hard to do. I have no idea what sort of things we should send, although cyanobacteria sound like a good idea. Maybe, if we think we have some idea of what a planet is like, it would be best to tailor each mission for that particular planet. This could be useful because if humans ever do develop interstellar travel we'd have planets already in the process of being terraformed.

However, if life is common in the universe, then why bother? We wouldn't be anything special and I don't see the point of risking someone else's ecosystem. What would be a good compromise, of course, would be to send probes out with some sort of artificial intelligence, to evaluate each planet on a case-by-case basis and decide whether there is already life and just move on if there is.

What would also be interesting would be to try this out on Mars and Europa (if they don't have life already). With a bit of practice we might even be able to manage the cloud-tops of Venus. However, all of these would take at least some genetic engineering. But the advantage is that we might be able to see the results. And in the case of Mars it might be useful in terraforming. Or just as a very long-term experiment. Science fiction author Ben Bova discusses something a little like that in his book Mars Life, although in that case all Martian life has gone extinct except bacteria and lichens and scientists are trying to create environments in which the bacteria could thrive and hopefully redevelop the ecosystem.



ruveyn
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25 Feb 2011, 4:56 pm

How would you get earth life out beyond our solar system. The stars are so far away.

ruveyn



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25 Feb 2011, 5:43 pm

I suspect Panspermia already occurs via interstellar cometary exchange. Directed Panspermia is something I would definitely support. Francis Crick, one of the co-discoverers of DNA, once mused that he suspects life on Earth could be the result of some sort of 'directed Panspermia'


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puddingmouse
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25 Feb 2011, 7:37 pm

ruveyn wrote:
How would you get earth life out beyond our solar system. The stars are so far away.

ruveyn


We could stick with our own solar system, but it is possible to do unmanned interstellar expeditions. Solar-sailing spacecraft can reach 150km a second. It would still take hundreds of thousands of years to reach some of the younger stars, but bacteria can survive for millions of years. In order to make sure the bacteria survive the cosmic rays, we can either send huge numbers, or build a few metres of shielding on the crafts.

I admit it does sound really difficult to do...mainly because of the huge numbers of solar-sailing craft we'd need. We could send millions and we wouldn't know if any would hit the target on the planet we want. I think they'd need some kind of AI directing the craft because otherwise, we're talking billions of craft.



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25 Feb 2011, 7:47 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
Hmm. Interesting. I really don't see much point unless it seems that life rare. If we find no other life in our solar system or, after observing the atmospheres of many, MANY exoplanets and we don't see any signs of life in other solar systems then I think it would be reasonable to attempt this. Of course, it would be very hard to do. I have no idea what sort of things we should send, although cyanobacteria sound like a good idea. Maybe, if we think we have some idea of what a planet is like, it would be best to tailor each mission for that particular planet. This could be useful because if humans ever do develop interstellar travel we'd have planets already in the process of being terraformed.

However, if life is common in the universe, then why bother? We wouldn't be anything special and I don't see the point of risking someone else's ecosystem. What would be a good compromise, of course, would be to send probes out with some sort of artificial intelligence, to evaluate each planet on a case-by-case basis and decide whether there is already life and just move on if there is.

What would also be interesting would be to try this out on Mars and Europa (if they don't have life already). With a bit of practice we might even be able to manage the cloud-tops of Venus. However, all of these would take at least some genetic engineering. But the advantage is that we might be able to see the results. And in the case of Mars it might be useful in terraforming. Or just as a very long-term experiment. Science fiction author Ben Bova discusses something a little like that in his book Mars Life, although in that case all Martian life has gone extinct except bacteria and lichens and scientists are trying to create environments in which the bacteria could thrive and hopefully redevelop the ecosystem.


If we send something as simple as bacteria, then it wouldn't really be terraformed much by the time we get there (if we ever do). It can take billions of years to evolve into more complex life.

Though the thought that it at least gives us something to start with also occurred to me. We could begin to send more complex earth life...though I really think we'll be extinct by then - if we're talking exoplanets. Mars is a possibility, though.



sluice
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25 Feb 2011, 8:40 pm

It is doubtful that evolution would repeat itself to where humans would develop and dominate again using your scenario. Even using your cyanobacteria in a duplicate earth-like planet, it is unlikely that a single inoculum of life would take hold and survive long enough for life to take hold and survive. Repeated exposures over long durations are probably needed.

A better bet might be sending out computers that can recreate life using bioorganic compounds that it either takes with it or is able to obtain once there. I suppose you could take human DNA sequences and the ability to artificially produce a fertilized egg and reproduce a human once there. If you can do this over a large enough time frame, using an orbiting spaceship nursery, you could reproduce a garden of eden possibly. The thing is that humans will likely evolve into something entirely different on Earth in any case. Our future generations, if they escape this solar system, wouldn't recognize themselves if they stumbled across New Earth.



ruveyn
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26 Feb 2011, 2:47 am

puddingmouse wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
How would you get earth life out beyond our solar system. The stars are so far away.

ruveyn


Solar-sailing spacecraft can reach 150km a second. It would still take hundreds of thousands of years to reach some of the younger stars, but bacteria can survive for millions of years. In order to make sure the bacteria survive the cosmic rays, we can either send huge numbers, or build a few metres of shielding on the crafts.



Do you think a vessel built by the lowest bidder is going to last that long? Cosmic rays do a number on metal. It causes imbrittlement.

ruveyn



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26 Feb 2011, 8:58 am

ruveyn wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
How would you get earth life out beyond our solar system. The stars are so far away.

ruveyn


Solar-sailing spacecraft can reach 150km a second. It would still take hundreds of thousands of years to reach some of the younger stars, but bacteria can survive for millions of years. In order to make sure the bacteria survive the cosmic rays, we can either send huge numbers, or build a few metres of shielding on the crafts.



Do you think a vessel built by the lowest bidder is going to last that long? Cosmic rays do a number on metal. It causes imbrittlement.

ruveyn


You've got a point. To reach other stars, they'll either have to be a lot faster or more expensively built. They can't be more expensively built because no-one is going to fund a project that humans don't see the results of before going extinct. They could be propelled by a laser in the earth's orbit, which would cut the journey time, but that's expensive.

I think if interstellar travel ever happens, this would be it. We obviously don't have the technology now, though.



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26 Feb 2011, 10:00 pm

Quote:
If we send something as simple as bacteria, then it wouldn't really be terraformed much by the time we get there (if we ever do). It can take billions of years to evolve into more complex life.


True, I suppose, although that's unfortunate. If we did have a really good AI, and preferably a REALLY big star ship, then maybe you could have it introduce things step by step. First bacteria to get a good Oxygen/Nitrogen atmosphere established. Then some protists. Then some simple plants and animal...

I don't really know if that would be entirely practical. It would certainly take thousands of years to do, probably more. Still, even if it got to the point where you had simple plants and animals before we arrived, that would be a great start. We could just bring some of the larger animals/crops with us and establish them ourselves. Who knows? Basically we're dealing with science fiction here.



ruveyn
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27 Feb 2011, 10:16 am

puddingmouse wrote:

I think if interstellar travel ever happens, this would be it. We obviously don't have the technology now, though.


And don't expect to get it any time before our extinction either. Unless we solve the problem of our ridiculously short life times.

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27 Feb 2011, 9:33 pm

Quote:
And don't expect to get it any time before our extinction either. Unless we solve the problem of our ridiculously short life times.


That's not necessarily true. One of the most practical ways could probably be accomplished within a few centuries. What you'd do is set up a colony in a hollowed out asteroid and make it self-sufficient. If we ever get around to mining asteroids we're likely to be trying to do this anyway. Then all you have to do is build some mass drivers on the asteroid to fling hunks of rock or slag off at really high speeds and propel the whole asteroid towards the stars. Of course, it would take thousands of years to get there, and there's no guarantee that the asteroid-civilization would last that long, but still, it stands a chance.

The other option is that as well slowly expand our presence within the Solar System we reach the Kuiper Belt and then one day the outer Oort Cloud. At that point you're already a good chunk of the way to Alpha Centauri, so you could just set up the mass drivers on one of the comets and head on over that way. In a few centuries you'd be at the outer Oort Cloud of that star system and you could slowly work your way inwards. All of this is highly speculative, of course, but probably present some of the most likely ways to achieve interstellar travel. Anyway, I try not to give up hope.



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28 Feb 2011, 3:02 am

I don't get the poll. I like the idea, I think it's very interesting and possible.

Is it yay or nay to this:

Quote:
The question is: should we and why?


:?:

Humans are very attached to their lives and the lives of the stuff on our planet. If our planet was itself seeded, that suggests we don't need to do it artificially. There's too much of this mindset with humans; thinking we have to make things happen. Things happen by themselves. Life on earth is dependent on context. Chucking a bunch of it into space seems a bit random. We don't even know what the purpose of life is. :shrug:


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Gideon
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28 Feb 2011, 12:33 pm

the purpose of life is to create more life.



puddingmouse
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28 Feb 2011, 2:32 pm

Moog wrote:

Humans are very attached to their lives and the lives of the stuff on our planet. If our planet was itself seeded, that suggests we don't need to do it artificially. There's too much of this mindset with humans; thinking we have to make things happen. Things happen by themselves. Life on earth is dependent on context. Chucking a bunch of it into space seems a bit random. We don't even know what the purpose of life is. :shrug:


I think we will never know what the purpose of life is. I suspect it has none.

Chucking a bunch of stuff at space is random, but so is, sort o,f the rush the reproduce life on earth - which will all go extinct, eventually. We justify it by seeing ourselves as stewards of the earth, and whatnot...at the heart of it, our desire to continue life and to instigate action is both nonsensical and a defining feature of our condition.

Though panspermia probably does happen completely without human intervention, I still think it would be interesting to try it ourselves. It would be great if we were all enlightened Taoist masters and let things take their course, but humans do stuff, sometimes creative, sometimes destructive (though the two are interwined). I think this would be an example of (mostly) creative action.

Why did humans land on the moon? It was a totally pointless thing to do, but it was awe-inspiring.

The question was whether or not you would support a directed panspermia project - yay, nay or indifferent.



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28 Feb 2011, 3:04 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Moog wrote:

Humans are very attached to their lives and the lives of the stuff on our planet. If our planet was itself seeded, that suggests we don't need to do it artificially. There's too much of this mindset with humans; thinking we have to make things happen. Things happen by themselves. Life on earth is dependent on context. Chucking a bunch of it into space seems a bit random. We don't even know what the purpose of life is. :shrug:


I think we will never know what the purpose of life is. I suspect it has none.

Chucking a bunch of stuff at space is random, but so is, sort o,f the rush the reproduce life on earth - which will all go extinct, eventually. We justify it by seeing ourselves as stewards of the earth, and whatnot...


Whoever left us with stewardship is going to s**t themselves when they get back.

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at the heart of it, our desire to continue life and to instigate action is both nonsensical and a defining feature of our condition.


Yes. Nonsense, good word. Very apt.

Quote:
Though panspermia probably does happen completely without human intervention, I still think it would be interesting to try it ourselves. It would be great if we were all enlightened Taoist masters and let things take their course, but humans do stuff, sometimes creative, sometimes destructive (though the two are interwined). I think this would be an example of (mostly) creative action.

Why did humans land on the moon? It was a totally pointless thing to do, but it was awe-inspiring.


Well, they may never have actually gone. Also I think they went there to find out what it was made of, and things. Discovery. I think it's made of cheese. Also to spy on the aliens encamped in the dark side.

Quote:
The question was whether or not you would support a directed panspermia project - yay, nay or indifferent.


Okay, then I think there's probly better things we could be doing.


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