So-Called "Mother Goddesses"

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Alright WP, let's talk about archaeology.

A while ago I was browsing Wikipedia and I discovered a page called "matriarchal religion". The page is NSFW but I still think I can link to it for science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchal_religion

The image they have in the page just looks like porn to me.
I've seen plenty of other so-called "mother goddess" statues at other sites but they all look like porn to me. These "matriarchal societies" were probably just hypersexual societies.

Am I right?

So is this right, you don't believe there have been societies that have worshiped goddesses? But you do believe there have been societies that have worshiped gods?

Knight, since I always like to keep an open mind, I read the Wiki article, as "matriarchal religion" is something I'm not at all familiar with. As I did so, I was struck by how long "matriarchal religion" is on theory, and how short it is on specifics and facts. What's more, as the last paragraph in this article shows, I'm in good company, as I greatly admire Camille Paglia:

"Debate continues on whether ancient matriarchal religion historically existed.[11] American scholar Camille Paglia has argued that "Not a shred of evidence supports the existence of matriarchy anywhere in the world at any time," and further that "The moral ambivalence of the great mother Goddesses has been conveniently forgotten by those American feminists who have resurrected them."[12] In her book The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory (2000), scholar Cynthia Eller discusses the origins of the idea of matriarchal prehistory, evidence for and against its historical accuracy, and whether the idea is good for modern feminism.[13]"

I think, due to the needs of ancient peoples, that female deities were primarily patrons of fertility, as in fecundity and good crop yields. I have also read of female deities as patrons of sex, which is, of course, closely related to fertility. Of course, there were exceptions, such as Athena (goddess of wisdom).

I think the only place "matriarchal religion" exists is in the minds of anti-historical feminists and other liberals. As always, I would be glad to be proved wrong and learn something new.

Last edited by Thelibrarian on 11 Jul 2013, 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The closest I've ever seen to these concepts are the matriarchal societies of the Native American civilizations of the Southeast. Here's a link.

http://skillscenter.greenwood.com/docum ... lessonplan

Again, I found no evidence of a "matriarchal religion" in the above link, though I did find this:

"The Onondaga Nation website states that the Clan Mothers “work with chiefs in making decisions for the people.” "

Notice that clan mothers are NOT chiefs themselves, but work WITH the chiefs. But this only makes sense. As hunter-gatherer societies, Indians were much more egalitarian than more advanced societies. But these societies were still warrior societies. My guess is that these were matrilineal rather than matriarchal societies, which are common, with only Jews being the most prominent modern example.

DarthMetaKnight,

You might want to read "The Chalice and the Blade" by Riane Eisler. Matriarchal societies might have been more free about sex, since sex is one of the things men use to control women, but it wasn't only about that. Showing breasts in public wasn't always the taboo that it is now in Western societies.

http://www.rianeeisler.com/chalice.htm

Religions, being artificial human constructs, will be based on whatever beliefs human beings hold most sacred. Some such beliefs revere the weather, the seasons, animals, volcanoes, the night sky, the Sun, the Moon, trees, fish, women, men, imaginary chimeras, and any number of theistic embodiments of humanity's best and worst behaviors and features.

True, but there are distinct systematic differences between a male dominated model and a female nurturing model. One is warlike and violent, the other more cooperative.

I took a look at your link and didn't find what I was looking for, which is a specific ancient society that practiced matriarchal religion. Since matriarchal religion is the topic of this thread, do you have any firm, specific evidence whatsoever that such a thing has ever existed? Again, the link you sent was not helpful in this respect. I'm trying to keep an open mind....

Tell that to the Amazons.

The Mother-Goddess cults I'm familiar with are indeed more cooperative and less confrontational than the Father-God cults I've encountered.

You will find that "Indian" societies and religions are still very much alive and vital, so please don't talk about us in the past tense. We also have academics writing about our own traditions and oral histories of our own, the accuracy of which have been established by anthropologists. Some do use the term matriarchal, an example that comes to mind is Denise Henning in her article, Yes My Daughters, We are Cherokee Women (Making Space For Indigenous Feminism, Joyce Green ed. pp. 187-197). I have also heard the term used by many Haudenosaunee people. My understanding (I am Anishinaabe living in an area with many Haudenosaunee people) is that most gender and clan systems in my area gave women a great deal of political power prior to colonisation. In some cases women had a little more power than men, but it was never a case of colonial style patriarchy reversed. The Haudenesaunee are matrilineal and gender roles *for cis-gendered people* are clearly differentiated. However, not having women as Sachems does not mean that women play less powerful roles in the confederacy. The role of Sachem is that of a speaker, and there has been interesting work on how this role has changed in response to colonial-patriarchy (I don't have a citation memorized for this one, sorry). My nation is primarily patrilineal, but prior to colonisation, women were very powerful politically and spiritually, sometime serving as political leaders and warriors, and often considered very powerful as healers. We have a complementary gender system with 3 - 5 genders (depending on who you talk to). Traditionally women had more control over property and community decisions, but with the fur trade and the lack of respect colonial officials had, and to some extent still have, for women, men have gained more political power. Our women and Twospirit people are now in the process of reclaiming our power and undoing the effects of patriarchy and the residential school genocide. In short, it differs from community to community, but arguments can and have been made that in some nations women did have considerable power and the term matriarchy could be used. Many of these religions are still practiced, although there has been erosion of women's power through colonization. However, if matriarchy is defined simply as a reversal of the colonial-patriarchal model, then no, I have never heard of a matriarchal society. I use the term matrifocal, to specify a society where women have political and religious power, as this does not always correlate exactly with weather a society is matrilineal, patrilineal, or bilateral.

Again, the topic of this post is not matriarchy, but matriarchal religions. But to your point, were not "Native American" societies warrior-based? And if so, were the women the warriors or the men?

This? The image they have in the page just looks like porn to me.

That looks like porn?

I'd hate to see you in an art gallery.

Not all "Native American" societies can be lumped together, and old school non-indigenous anthropolgists' classifications tend to be over simplifications, if not outright misinterpretations. Warriors gained importance during conflicts resulting from colonization, but even with this increased political power the patriarchal bias of early non-indigenous anthropologists and colonial officials caused they to overestimate the importance of male leaders, particularly war leaders. Male leaders were also more effective in dealing with patriarchal settlers. There is still an epidemic of sexualized violence against our women.This meant that the roles of women and Twospirit people were often overlooked. In my nation some women were warriors, and women warriors, particularly if they were twospirited, were at times considered more powerful than male warriors. There are female mide as well, so this is relevant to the topic of matriarchal religions as our religious and political systems are not wholly separate. We don't have a theistic deity, so, again, if the definition of matriarchal religion is a simple reversal of patriarchal religion, it would not count. However I was taught to refer to the Creator/Great Mysterious with feminine pronouns in English because creation is a feminine act in our gender system. ( This is not a personified deity, but it is difficult to translate the concept into English). Anishinaabemowin has no gendered pronouns, the 'genders' in the language for verbs depend on the agency/animism expressed. The language is mostly verbs. This makes the question of weather our religion is matriarchal more complicated as concepts of gender, deities, and spirit are difficult to translate accurately between Anishinaabemowin and English. Religious practice leaves at great deal of room for personal agency and individual development. Women are seen as having a natural edge in spiritual matters because many go through monthly purification. Women might have had an edge in becoming powerful healers because many men become healers after a serious illness or near death experience. Women who choose to give birth go through what is considered a near death experience in brining a new person into the world. I should also point out that gender in our spiritual beliefs is related to biology, but it is not strictly defined by it. Gender is performative. So to sum up, the description of our societies as warrior based is an old mischarachtorisation; women could and continue to be warriors, and religious figures; many of our religios concepts honour feminine divinity, but this is not a reversal of patriarchal religion because there is an ideal of balance, a value placed on self-determination, and our gender system is not binary.

You are absolutely right that "indian" is a rubric for tribes with very different cultures, and that frequently hated one another. Having said this, what is described below is fairly typical of what most tribes believed. Unlike modern liberalism, the Indian beliefs tended to be much more sane. The following was written by a Comanche, the bravest and fiercest tribe of them all:

http://www.badeagle.com/html/white_women.html

As far as female shamans or holy women go, again, can you cite me examples such as this famous one about a male Indian shaman:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Elk-Speaks- ... elk+speaks

Insofar as nobody has been able to cite, or even try to cite, even one example of a matriarchal religion, I will assume it's a leftist-feminist fairy tale until I do see evidence.

I also find it interesting the way you describe anthropologists. Since at least the time of Boas, anthropology has gone out of its way to treat all cultures as equal--even when clearly they are not--and to disparage Western cultures at the expense of the more primitive and violent. So, I do agree with you that anthropology is bad and has rendered itself largely irrelevant, though obviously for different reasons

I think I know my own religion a little better than some random Internet sources, and yes there are female mide. Incidentally I never said anything about the level of animosity between First Nations, which you are sensationalizing and misrepresenting. As I explained, early anthropological work overlooked the roles of women and two spirit people, so there is little early academic work on the subject, but there are vibrant oral histories, the accuracy of which are confirmed by more recent anthropological work.

For academic sources, the book I already mentioned is a good starting place, and the specific article I mentioned addresses matriarchy specifically. Farmers Warriors Traders: A Fresh Look At Ojibway Women, by Pricilla Buffalohead publised in Minnesota History v. 48 No 6, references female shamans; "Yes I'm Brave": Extraordenary Women in the Anishinaabe (Ojibwe) Tradition by Theresa Smith in Journal of Feminist Studies in Religion, expands on gender variation and Twospirit women; The Woman Who Married a Beaver:Trade Patterns and Gender Rols in the Ojibwa Fur Trade by Bruce White in Ethnohistory, talks about changes in the gender system during early colonization; Revision and Resistance: The Politic of Native Women's Motherwork by Lisa Urdel in Frontiers: A Journal of Women's Studies, talks about the gender system in relation to modern feminism and womanism and talks about historical changes in the gender system from a more Pan-Indian perspective; Roundtable Discussion: Native/First Nation Theology in the Journal of Feminist Studies in Religion talks about how our religious traditions have been interpreted by outsiders as well as discussing the impacts of colonization; Honouring the Blood of the People: Berry Fasting in the Twenty-First Century by Kim Anderson gives a good account of the contemporary revitalization of women's spiritual traditions in the Cree nation; there is a national film board film which I think is available online called Mother of Many Children by Alanis Obomsawin that in some segments gives some oral history about women's religious traditions and female shamans as well as interviewing contemporary elders and shamans; Untill Our Hearts Are On The Ground, is a good coolection of papers about the role of motherhood both traditionally and in relation to contemporary conflicts with colonial-patriarchy. If you want more sources I will have to open a box of resarch that is currently packed away for moving, but maybe someone else has sources they can contribute. All of these provide a good groundwork for understanding the gender system in a religious context and demonstrate the importance of women in our religions.

None of this is a perfect substitute to actually talking to elders. A lot of our knowledge is oral, and there was a time when our religions were outlawed and talking to anthropologists had severe consequences. Just because it hasn't been written down doesn't mean that the information is not out there. The last part of your comment is blatantly white supremacist, so I am disinclined to engage with you further on the issue of whether my culture is equal to white cultures, as in my experience people of that mindset will not be persuaded by someone they have already deemed "primitive" and "violent" no matter what evidence I present. I will however post what I have already written for the benefit of others. Thank you, by the way, for disparaging my race and religion as inferior when you clearly know nothing about us, you illustrate your own ignorance well.