Faster Than The Speed of Light
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/09/ ... evolution/
http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897
The CERN research institute near Geneva said measurements over three years had shown neutrinos pumped to a receiver in Gran Sasso, Italy, had arrived an average of 60 nanoseconds sooner than light would have done -- a tiny difference that could nonetheless undermine Albert Einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and this is an extraordinary claim," eminent cosmologist and astrophysicist Martin Rees told Reuters.
"It is premature to comment on this," Professor Stephen Hawking, the world's most well-known physicist, told Reuters. "Further experiments and clarifications are needed."
Professor Jenny Thomas, who works on neutrinos at CERN's friendly rival Fermilab near Chicago in the United States, commented: "The impact of this measurement, were it to be correct, would be huge."
CERN's own research director Sergio Bertolucci said if the findings were confirmed -- and at least two separate laboratories are likely to start work on this in the near future -- "it might change our view of physics."
The high level of caution is normal in science where anything that could be a breakthrough discovery, especially overturning well-established thinking, is in principle always checked and rechecked by other researchers.
In a comment issued by CERN, the world's leading laboratory for particle research on the edge of Geneva, Bertolucci underscored this principle.
"When an experiment finds an apparently unbelievable result and can find no artefact of the measurement to account for it, it is normal to invite broader scrutiny....it is good scientific practice," he said.
The measurements were posted on the scientific website http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897
overnight.
The discovery would open up intriguing theoretical possibilities.
"Light speed is a cosmic speed limit and it exists in order to protect the law of cause and effect," said Professor Forshaw.
"If something travels faster than the cosmic speed limit, then it becomes possible to send information into the past - in other words, time travel into the past would become possible. That does not mean we'll be building time-machines anytime soon though - there is quite a gulf between a time-travelling neutrino to a time-travelling human."
GHOST PARTICLES
The CERN team, working in an experiment dubbed OPERA, pumped neutrinos -- often called ghost particles because they pass through matter, and human bodies, unnoticed -- from CERN 730 kms (500 miles) to Gran Sasso south of Rome.
Over three years, and from 15,000 neutrino "events," a huge detector at the Italian centre deep under mountain rock recorded what OPERA spokesman Antonio Ereditato described as the "startling" findings.
He said his team had high confidence they had measured correctly and excluded any possibility of some outside influence, or artefact, affecting the outcome.
"My dream is now that other colleagues find we are right," he added.
In Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, which underpins the current view of how the universe works, nothing can travel faster than light -- 300,000 kms, or 186,000 miles, per second -- because its mass would become impossibly infinite.
Einstein's theory has been tested thousands of times over the past 106 years and only recently have there been just slight hints that the behaviour of some elementary particles of matter might not fit into it.
These hints were detected last year in Fermilab's MINOS experiment with neutrinos, but -- unlike those of OPERA -- were found to be within a normal margin of error.
Fermilab's Thomas, who is likely to be involved in MINOS experiments to check the CERN-Gran Sasso measurements, said if they were correct "it would overturn everything we thought we understood about relativity and the speed of light."
Ereditato, a physicist who also works at the Einstein Institute in the University of Berne, said the potential impact on science "is too large to draw any immediate conclusions or attempt physics interpretations."
SURPRISING WITH MYSTERIES
Also declining to claim a genuine scientific discovery before other researchers had confirmed them, he said the neutrino, whose existence was first confirmed in 1934, "is still surprising us with its mysteries."
Scientific bloggers on the Internet said the particle might be slipping into and out of dimensions, other than the known four of length, breadth, depth and time, as predicted by the controversial "string theory" of how the cosmos works.
"Only when the dust finally settles should we dare draw any firm conclusions," said Professor Forshaw. "It is in the nature of science that for every new and important discovery there will be hundreds of false alarms."
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If you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, have accepted him as your lord and savior, and are 100% proud of it, put this in your sig.
Faster than light *anything* is very interesting, and part of me WANTS this to be some kind of breakthrough leading to faster than light travel.
But, my realistic side says this is likely a case of "sure, we found one thing that can break the light barrier, but nothing else can".
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A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown.
http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897
The CERN research institute near Geneva said measurements over three years had shown neutrinos pumped to a receiver in Gran Sasso, Italy, had arrived an average of 60 nanoseconds sooner than light would have done -- a tiny difference that could nonetheless undermine Albert Einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and this is an extraordinary claim," eminent cosmologist and astrophysicist Martin Rees told Reuters.
"It is premature to comment on this," Professor Stephen Hawking, the world's most well-known physicist, told Reuters. "Further experiments and clarifications are needed."
Professor Jenny Thomas, who works on neutrinos at CERN's friendly rival Fermilab near Chicago in the United States, commented: "The impact of this measurement, were it to be correct, would be huge."
CERN's own research director Sergio Bertolucci said if the findings were confirmed -- and at least two separate laboratories are likely to start work on this in the near future -- "it might change our view of physics."
The high level of caution is normal in science where anything that could be a breakthrough discovery, especially overturning well-established thinking, is in principle always checked and rechecked by other researchers.
In a comment issued by CERN, the world's leading laboratory for particle research on the edge of Geneva, Bertolucci underscored this principle.
"When an experiment finds an apparently unbelievable result and can find no artefact of the measurement to account for it, it is normal to invite broader scrutiny....it is good scientific practice," he said.
The measurements were posted on the scientific website http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897
overnight.
The discovery would open up intriguing theoretical possibilities.
"Light speed is a cosmic speed limit and it exists in order to protect the law of cause and effect," said Professor Forshaw.
"If something travels faster than the cosmic speed limit, then it becomes possible to send information into the past - in other words, time travel into the past would become possible. That does not mean we'll be building time-machines anytime soon though - there is quite a gulf between a time-travelling neutrino to a time-travelling human."
GHOST PARTICLES
The CERN team, working in an experiment dubbed OPERA, pumped neutrinos -- often called ghost particles because they pass through matter, and human bodies, unnoticed -- from CERN 730 kms (500 miles) to Gran Sasso south of Rome.
Over three years, and from 15,000 neutrino "events," a huge detector at the Italian centre deep under mountain rock recorded what OPERA spokesman Antonio Ereditato described as the "startling" findings.
He said his team had high confidence they had measured correctly and excluded any possibility of some outside influence, or artefact, affecting the outcome.
"My dream is now that other colleagues find we are right," he added.
In Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity, which underpins the current view of how the universe works, nothing can travel faster than light -- 300,000 kms, or 186,000 miles, per second -- because its mass would become impossibly infinite.
Einstein's theory has been tested thousands of times over the past 106 years and only recently have there been just slight hints that the behaviour of some elementary particles of matter might not fit into it.
These hints were detected last year in Fermilab's MINOS experiment with neutrinos, but -- unlike those of OPERA -- were found to be within a normal margin of error.
Fermilab's Thomas, who is likely to be involved in MINOS experiments to check the CERN-Gran Sasso measurements, said if they were correct "it would overturn everything we thought we understood about relativity and the speed of light."
Ereditato, a physicist who also works at the Einstein Institute in the University of Berne, said the potential impact on science "is too large to draw any immediate conclusions or attempt physics interpretations."
SURPRISING WITH MYSTERIES
Also declining to claim a genuine scientific discovery before other researchers had confirmed them, he said the neutrino, whose existence was first confirmed in 1934, "is still surprising us with its mysteries."
Scientific bloggers on the Internet said the particle might be slipping into and out of dimensions, other than the known four of length, breadth, depth and time, as predicted by the controversial "string theory" of how the cosmos works.
"Only when the dust finally settles should we dare draw any firm conclusions," said Professor Forshaw. "It is in the nature of science that for every new and important discovery there will be hundreds of false alarms."
The OPERA finding are still in need of independent corroboration.
It is not yet a done deal.
ruveyn
There is nothing in Einstein's Special Theory that forbid matter from traveling faster than light. If you apply the Lorentz Fitzgerald transform you will find that item goes backward in time.
However we are talking about the OPERA project. That effect of slightly greater than light speed will have to be reproduced by independent experimentation before it is accepted. It is a matter of experiment, not mathematical proof.
ruveyn
Fermilab should be set up to replicate the experiment later this year. If their results are consistent with OPERA, this could be very interesting - because if one object with mass can exceed the speed of light, I can think of no theoretical reason why any massive object can't, and if by a little bit, why not by more?
I'm still leaning on the side of "observational error", simply because relativity has withstood the test of experimentation so far. Science is not religion, however; when the facts contradict our theories, we change our theories, we don't ignore the facts. (Yes, I am aware that some who claim the mantle of "science" for a belief system will ignore inconvenient facts; they do not practice science, however, but an odd form of faith. Scientists don't want to be comforted - they [we?] want to know what's going on.)
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There is nothing in Einstein's Special Theory that forbid matter from traveling faster than light. If you apply the Lorentz Fitzgerald transform you will find that item goes backward in time.
However we are talking about the OPERA project. That effect of slightly greater than light speed will have to be reproduced by independent experimentation before it is accepted. It is a matter of experiment, not mathematical proof.
ruveyn
"As a result, if something were travelling faster than c relative to an inertial frame of reference, it would be travelling backwards in time relative to another frame, and causality would be violated.[Note 4][33] In such a frame of reference, an "effect" could be observed before its "cause". Such a violation of causality has never been recorded,[15] and would lead to paradoxes such as the tachyonic antitelephone.[34]"
I see what your saying now, I couldn't catch up on information because my college loads us with so much workload. I'll still have to bookmark this and catch up on it later.
"As a result, if something were travelling faster than c relative to an inertial frame of reference, it would be travelling backwards in time relative to another frame, and causality would be violated.[Note 4][33] In such a frame of reference, an "effect" could be observed before its "cause". Such a violation of causality has never been recorded,[15] and would lead to paradoxes such as the tachyonic antitelephone.[34]"
I see what your saying now, I couldn't catch up on information because my college loads us with so much workload. However there still must be a way to prove this with math...
Math is a tool, not a generator of physics. Physics starts with observable facts. One cannot deduce the Kosmos a priori. One has to look and measure first.
Mathematical truth and physical truth are quite different and distinct.
ruveyn
DentArthurDent
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Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,884
Location: Victoria, Australia
As I understand it special relativity does allow for faster than C travel, waves for example have been shown to have a phase velocity faster than C.
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"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx
Never hire a microwave engineer who does not understand the difference between phase and group velocities.
Phase velocity is the apparent velocity of a wavefront through a waveguide. It may appear to be superluminal, but it actually carries no information or energy any faster than would the same wave in free space.
Group velocity is the actual velocity of a wave through whatever medium it travels. The medium could be a vacuum, in which case the velocity can never exceed 299,792,458 meters per second; or it can be a denser dielectric medium, in which case the group velocity can be considerably less than the speed of light in a vacuum.
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