New Sherlock series equating Asperger's with sociopaths?

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AbstractAlien
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29 Jan 2012, 5:55 am

The_Perfect_Storm wrote:
But you haven't actually seen it... Okay.


I saw 1 episode last year and 2 this year, that was more than enough for me to come to the conclusions I have done in my previous post.

I'm not sure what I've done wrong to deserve your attitude, but I've made the effort to reply to you, address your points as best as I can and explain my opinions and thoughts - yet this is twice now you've just replied with a sarcastic one-liner. If you have a problem with my opinions or wording of them I'd really appreciate just knowing what it is please.


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fraac
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29 Jan 2012, 6:19 am

Moffat is terrible, I blame him for the weak bits in Sherlock. Mark Gatiss is good though. So far it's by far my favourite thing Moffat has been associated with.



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29 Jan 2012, 8:37 am

AbstractAlien wrote:
The_Perfect_Storm wrote:
But you haven't actually seen it... Okay.


I saw 1 episode last year and 2 this year, that was more than enough for me to come to the conclusions I have done in my previous post.

I'm not sure what I've done wrong to deserve your attitude, but I've made the effort to reply to you, address your points as best as I can and explain my opinions and thoughts - yet this is twice now you've just replied with a sarcastic one-liner. If you have a problem with my opinions or wording of them I'd really appreciate just knowing what it is please.


It's just you seemed to be saying Sherlock was bound to be s**t because the guy did a poor job on Doctor Who.

I don't really know what your specific problem with Sherlock is. You just get mentioning vague things like "it's shallow, manipulative, etc." But, as you've said you've seen half of them. What was it in particular that you didn't like?



TheFerretHadToGo
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29 Jan 2012, 3:30 pm

One of the biggest problems with Sherlock is this:
Season 1 episode 2, we are introduced to Sherlock and learn he really doesn´t care about justice, to him solving crime is just a game. The killer in the episode has no clear plan to which people he kills, it´s just a game to him.
Season 1 episode 3, Moriarty appears. He´s a snarky megalomaniac who´s bored with humanity and life itself because he has nothing left to strive for. The only thing that keeps him going is the great game of crime, outsmarting the law and even Sherlock.
Season 2 episode 1 features a dominatrix who seems to take life as a game too.

Maybe I´m old-fashioned, I usually expect criminals to have some sort of motive for committing a crime, other than playing around. It´s almost as stupid as when the bad guys do evil stuff because they think it´s oh so fun to be evil. In my opinion that´s bad writing.



fraac
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29 Jan 2012, 4:27 pm

Agreed. That's part of the problem that I'm inclined to blame Moffat for. I watched some of recent Doctor Who and it's pure megalomania, and now Sherlock is all Übermenschen. I don't appreciate that world view. One character like that is fine if you're showing him in contrast to the normal world, and maybe allow a sprinkling of arch nemesis in the background. They risk oversalting it, especially having already done The Hound of The Baskervilles, The Reichenbach Falls and The Final Problem. I know that Steven Moffat's idea of where you go from there is larger and larger, which would be just terrible.



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29 Jan 2012, 10:57 pm

TheFerretHadToGo wrote:
One of the biggest problems with Sherlock is this:
Season 1 episode 2, we are introduced to Sherlock and learn he really doesn´t care about justice, to him solving crime is just a game. The killer in the episode has no clear plan to which people he kills, it´s just a game to him.
Season 1 episode 3, Moriarty appears. He´s a snarky megalomaniac who´s bored with humanity and life itself because he has nothing left to strive for. The only thing that keeps him going is the great game of crime, outsmarting the law and even Sherlock.
Season 2 episode 1 features a dominatrix who seems to take life as a game too.

Maybe I´m old-fashioned, I usually expect criminals to have some sort of motive for committing a crime, other than playing around. It´s almost as stupid as when the bad guys do evil stuff because they think it´s oh so fun to be evil. In my opinion that´s bad writing.


Moriarty was designed to be off-the-wall crazy. He's a villain that has basically achieved everything. No one can stop him. He can get anything he wants. Sherlock deals with that kind of insane boredom by absorbing himself in drugs and reckless behaviour (when he's not on a case). What Moriarty enjoys now is watching people squirm. I didn't see anything wrong with this. What do you want Moriarty to be after? Money? That's so boring...

S2E1 wasn't as simple as Adler or whatever her name was 'playing a game'. And you have to remember that a large part of her behaviour was under instruction from Moriarty. In the end all she was trying to do was keep herself alive.

Why do you mention Sherlock here as though it's a bad thing? Even in the book, as far as I've read, Sherlock doesn't really care about justice or anything like that.



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30 Jan 2012, 3:04 am

The_Perfect_Storm wrote:
Why do you mention Sherlock here as though it's a bad thing? Even in the book, as far as I've read, Sherlock doesn't really care about justice or anything like that.

I mentioned it because it´s a bit too much that not only the protagonist but also his arch-enemy and two other major characters treat life as a game in only six episodes. And as for motive I don´t think hunger for money is very good either, I´d just like something other than "because I felt like". There´s stuff like jealousy, pride, revenge, rivalry, greed (not just monetary), to name a few possible reasons.



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30 Jan 2012, 5:34 am

TheFerretHadToGo wrote:
The_Perfect_Storm wrote:
Why do you mention Sherlock here as though it's a bad thing? Even in the book, as far as I've read, Sherlock doesn't really care about justice or anything like that.

I mentioned it because it´s a bit too much that not only the protagonist but also his arch-enemy and two other major characters treat life as a game in only six episodes. And as for motive I don´t think hunger for money is very good either, I´d just like something other than "because I felt like". There´s stuff like jealousy, pride, revenge, rivalry, greed (not just monetary), to name a few possible reasons.



I don't know... I felt like each character had their own distinct motives. They weren't really that similar at all. They can not be summed up as 'treating life like a game'.



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02 Feb 2012, 3:33 pm

TheFerretHadToGo wrote:
One of the biggest problems with Sherlock is this:
Season 1 episode 2, we are introduced to Sherlock and learn he really doesn´t care about justice, to him solving crime is just a game. The killer in the episode has no clear plan to which people he kills, it´s just a game to him.
Season 1 episode 3, Moriarty appears. He´s a snarky megalomaniac who´s bored with humanity and life itself because he has nothing left to strive for. The only thing that keeps him going is the great game of crime, outsmarting the law and even Sherlock.
Season 2 episode 1 features a dominatrix who seems to take life as a game too.

Maybe I´m old-fashioned, I usually expect criminals to have some sort of motive for committing a crime, other than playing around. It´s almost as stupid as when the bad guys do evil stuff because they think it´s oh so fun to be evil. In my opinion that´s bad writing.


I disagree, I totally get Moriarty. If you are super-bright and you are bored stupid with people and social norms, playing dangerous games would be fun. I don't think Moriarty is evil at all. He does terrible things but I think that he is just very, very bored. And beating people is good fun, after all. It is why anyone plays games isn't it?



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02 Feb 2012, 3:37 pm

I always played games to learn about people. Winning or losing was irrelevant. I'd always be sure to win and then to lose to experience the full effect and learn the most. I could understand a character like that but Moriarty is more a comic villain.



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02 Feb 2012, 3:40 pm

Quote:
I mentioned it because it´s a bit too much that not only the protagonist but also his arch-enemy and two other major characters treat life as a game in only six episodes. And as for motive I don´t think hunger for money is very good either, I´d just like something other than "because I felt like". There´s stuff like jealousy, pride, revenge, rivalry, greed (not just monetary), to name a few possible reasons.


Not if you have diminished emotional responses. For instance, if you are on the autism spectrum or a sociopath.
If you are very,very smart, like Sherlock and Moriarty, 'because I felt like it' is in my opinion the most honest way of interacting with the world. What you can do is decide if your 'because I felt like it' is going to harm or help.
I like the honest personal responsibility of these two characters and their calm, straightforward way of making decisions. Much better than all that emotional, guilt-ridden emotional and religious/moral clap-trap that most of us use to inform out decisions.



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02 Feb 2012, 3:43 pm

fraac wrote:
I always played games to learn about people. Winning or losing was irrelevant. I'd always be sure to win and then to lose to experience the full effect and learn the most. I could understand a character like that but Moriarty is more a comic villain.


Well I respect your point of view. Although, I never wanted to learn about someone through playing a game. I just wanted to play, and win. End of. But then, I am not particularly interested in people.



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02 Feb 2012, 3:50 pm

I thought the Baskerville episode was best, with just normal people in it.

I've watched all 3 recent episodes about 10 times each.



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05 Feb 2012, 9:25 am

The fact that Sherlock is seen following neurotypical social norms and behaving accordingly is not a clear indicator of ASPD over asperger. Given enough intelligence anyone could pass for a "normal" human without much of a hassle providing they were high-functioning enough. For someone like Sherlock who is without a doubt of genius level intelligence, combined with having an extraordinary memory and acute observational abilities, pretending to be neurotypical would be a simple task in comparison with many of the tasks he undertakes. However, doing so would without a doubt be a drain on his mental faculties and thus he would not function at max capacity. IE he would be unable to observe, reason and so on as effectively while pretending. For instance, if we look at the character of Cal Lightman from "Lie to me" his ability to read body language, micro-expressions and such is reduced when he has to act as an interrogator and also socially interact with the person being interrogated.

Given his comment in the last episode to Moriarty "Oh, I may be on the side of the angels...but don't think for one second that I am one.", this would appear to be a clear-cut sociopath reference given that they are often presented as pure evil, thus Sherlock's statement makes sense. However, it could also be a way to illustrate the moral ambiguity of the character as a result of primarily relying on reason, since reason is not conditional on social norms or laws.

The main issue I had was figuring out how his disregard of social norms linked up with asperger rather than ASPD, however if one postulates that his "special interest" so to speak are the cases he takes on would a person on the autism spectrum break social norms in order to pursue their special interest? For instance, could a person with autism or aspergers with a special interest in regards to trains break into a train yard in order to enhance his or her knowledge on the topic. If yes, it follows that Sherlock with Asperger's could break into a house in order to further his special interest namely his cases.

Furthermore, it strikes me as odd knowing that people with ASPD tend to strive to appear neutrotypical that Sherlock does not. His behavior when he's not being consciously manipulative is much more akin to that of Asperger's than that of ASPD, if we contrast it with that of Dexter Morgan the difference becomes quite clear.

Then again, it's a TV-show and the writers are free to infuse their characters with whatever personality quirks they desire, it doesn't mean they have actual knowledge about the conditions they use, it means they know the name and stereotyped appearance of it.

*The term "High functioning sociopath" is used to separate those sociopaths who control their destructive urges or find legal outlets for them versus those who do not. The difference between Gordon Gekko and Ted Bundy pretty much.



RosieLea
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06 Feb 2012, 7:58 pm

I think that Sherlock ID's as a sociopath to appear more frightening/to keep people away. Its possible that he's internalized it over the years, and believes himself to be a sociopath out of self-preservation after spending his entire life being exposed to people like Anderson and Donovan.

After all it is quite obvious that he cares about John, Mrs. Hudson, and Irene--even Lestrade and Molly to some small level. (wont say anymore for those who havent seen S2)

I don't think he's a sociopath at all, and while Aspergers is a likely diagnosis to his behaviors, its not the only one.



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07 Feb 2012, 6:18 pm

Did anyone else get the feeling that the directors and the actors were desperately TRYING to portray "APERGEEEER'S!" in Sherlock, especially in the last season? The last season was too...different from the first. It frankly made me uncomfortable. Could it be that perhaps they're trying to give viewers a glimpse ("...a tiny GLIMPSE, Sherlock!" Couldn't help myself...:P) of Sherlock's internal emotional life, and develop him as a character? Maybe that's why I don't like it as much. They just made him seem so exaggeratedly "alien" for a bit, then they gave him these emotions....doesn't fit together. Or is it just me?