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Capper7
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30 Jul 2010, 6:39 pm

But, t0, then that creates a paradox. Marty needs the other Delorean to make his original trip to 1885 (or 1985 like Doc wanted). If they used parts from "this one" in the Old West, then 1955 Doc can't help Marty repair the Delorean at the beginning of Part III.



TheDoctor82
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30 Jul 2010, 6:47 pm

t0 wrote:
I also think the first movie was great by itself and should have left it alone. There's a huge plot hole at the start of the third movie that made the entire movie pointless. Which is:

1) Doc gets sent back to the 1800s from 1955 when the machine is hit by lightning at the end of part 2.
2) Doc hides the machine and it makes its way back to 1955.
3) Marty goes back to the 1800s in the time machine to find Doc. There are now 2 time machines back in the 1800s.
4) Fuel line gets severed on Marty's time machine so they go through the 3rd movie because they can't go into the future without gasoline (or the train) to power the drivetrain on the car.

BUT - there's a second time machine with a perfectly good gas line (and presumably gasoline) that Doc hid. They could have repaired Marty's machine with the parts from Doc's and got the machine running without involving the train, etc.


to be fair, the entire series is a massive gaping plothole.

However, I too am a bit confused by the situation with both Deloreans and why they went to uncover the one Doc hid in the movie, and what happened to the one Marty left in that hole; and where did Doc hide the Delorean?



imbatshitcrazy
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30 Jul 2010, 6:47 pm

this is heavy



TheDoctor82
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30 Jul 2010, 6:50 pm

imbatshitcrazy wrote:
this is heavy


what do you expect when the whole franchise is a giant plothole?



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30 Jul 2010, 6:51 pm

@TheDoctor82: butthead



KaiG
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30 Jul 2010, 6:53 pm

t0 wrote:
I also think the first movie was great by itself and should have left it alone. There's a huge plot hole at the start of the third movie that made the entire movie pointless. Which is:

1) Doc gets sent back to the 1800s from 1955 when the machine is hit by lightning at the end of part 2.
2) Doc hides the machine and it makes its way back to 1955.
3) Marty goes back to the 1800s in the time machine to find Doc. There are now 2 time machines back in the 1800s.
4) Fuel line gets severed on Marty's time machine so they go through the 3rd movie because they can't go into the future without gasoline (or the train) to power the drivetrain on the car.

BUT - there's a second time machine with a perfectly good gas line (and presumably gasoline) that Doc hid. They could have repaired Marty's machine with the parts from Doc's and got the machine running without involving the train, etc.

That's not a plot hole. When storing a car for a long period of time, you drain it first.

A real plothole is the fact that after Old Biff gives his younger self the Almanac, he's still able to return to his native 2015 (thus bringing the Delorean back to Marty and Doc), even though by the rules of that same movie he should have only been able to return to the alternate future of the crappy hellhole version of 1985 that he created.


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t0
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30 Jul 2010, 8:57 pm

Capper7 wrote:
But, t0, then that creates a paradox. Marty needs the other Delorean to make his original trip to 1885 (or 1985 like Doc wanted). If they used parts from "this one" in the Old West, then 1955 Doc can't help Marty repair the Delorean at the beginning of Part III.


A minor paradox. The only change would be that the time machine would need a new gas line in addition to its repairs. A suitable gas line would be available in 1955.

KaiG wrote:
That's not a plot hole. When storing a car for a long period of time, you drain it first.


They still could have taken the line off the other time machine and used the gas in the original. Cutting the line wouldn't drain the entire tank. Plus, you can't convince me that a scientist would have thrown out the gas - he would have kept it for some kind of experiment.

Quote:
A real plothole is the fact that after Old Biff gives his younger self the Almanac, he's still able to return to his native 2015 (thus bringing the Delorean back to Marty and Doc), even though by the rules of that same movie he should have only been able to return to the alternate future of the crappy hellhole version of 1985 that he created.


True. Unless Doc's reasoning at the end of the triolgy is wrong. Maybe you can't [substantially] change the future.



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30 Jul 2010, 9:20 pm

t0 wrote:
Capper7 wrote:
But, t0, then that creates a paradox. Marty needs the other Delorean to make his original trip to 1885 (or 1985 like Doc wanted). If they used parts from "this one" in the Old West, then 1955 Doc can't help Marty repair the Delorean at the beginning of Part III.


A minor paradox. The only change would be that the time machine would need a new gas line in addition to its repairs. A suitable gas line would be available in 1955.

KaiG wrote:
That's not a plot hole. When storing a car for a long period of time, you drain it first.


They still could have taken the line off the other time machine and used the gas in the original. Cutting the line wouldn't drain the entire tank. Plus, you can't convince me that a scientist would have thrown out the gas - he would have kept it for some kind of experiment.

Quote:
A real plothole is the fact that after Old Biff gives his younger self the Almanac, he's still able to return to his native 2015 (thus bringing the Delorean back to Marty and Doc), even though by the rules of that same movie he should have only been able to return to the alternate future of the crappy hellhole version of 1985 that he created.


True. Unless Doc's reasoning at the end of the triolgy is wrong. Maybe you can't [substantially] change the future.


the Biff point is one of the biggest plot holes, though to be fair, there was sort of a different angle they were going to handle that with....which they didn't go with, and it would've made a lot more sense. Basically, you see Biff return to the original 2015 clutching his chest; supposedly, it's because in alternate 1985, Lorraine Baines shoots him. Why he still returns to original 2015 makes no sense, but that point would've made at least a little more sense.

Like I said, the whole series is a giant plot hole.



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30 Jul 2010, 10:39 pm

TheDoctor82 wrote:
the Biff point is one of the biggest plot holes, though to be fair, there was sort of a different angle they were going to handle that with....which they didn't go with, and it would've made a lot more sense. Basically, you see Biff return to the original 2015 clutching his chest; supposedly, it's because in alternate 1985, Lorraine Baines shoots him. Why he still returns to original 2015 makes no sense, but that point would've made at least a little more sense.

Like I said, the whole series is a giant plot hole.

Actually, the deleted scene had Biff holding his chest and then disappearing because he had changed his own history. It would have "addressed" the fact that he shouldn't have been able to get back to that version of 2015, but it still wouldn't have made any sense. Also, it would have made his broken cane disappear, giving Doc no reason to suspect foul play.


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30 Jul 2010, 11:16 pm

What the hell is that....?



imbatshitcrazy
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02 Aug 2010, 6:02 pm

Marty: doc, you won't believe this. we have to go back to 1955
Doc: I don't believe it.

Part 2



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02 Aug 2010, 11:26 pm

KaiG wrote:
A real plothole is the fact that after Old Biff gives his younger self the Almanac, he's still able to return to his native 2015 (thus bringing the Delorean back to Marty and Doc), even though by the rules of that same movie he should have only been able to return to the alternate future of the crappy hellhole version of 1985 that he created.


True. However, besides the "deleted scene" discussion above, consider this (warning: this may sound a bit lame, but I read it somewhere--I did not make it up):

When Old Biff returned to 2015, the next thing we saw was Marty and Doc getting Jennifer back to the DeLorean. It was dark. We didn't see any other people. Shortly thereafter, they return to 1985 ("1985-A", that is). It is possible that, the moment Old Biff gave Young Biff the almanac in 1955, the world of 2015 changed around Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstein but the part of town they were in was not altered noticeably enough for them to realize that anything was wrong.

I either read this on Wikipedia or TV Tropes, because this inconsistency always bugged me, too.


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03 Aug 2010, 12:48 am

gosh, this is all so complicated :?
i was one of those dimbulbs who never ever thought to ask why the people couldn't get off of gilligan's island.



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03 Aug 2010, 2:07 am

t0 wrote:
I also think the first movie was great by itself and should have left it alone. There's a huge plot hole at the start of the third movie that made the entire movie pointless. Which is:

1) Doc gets sent back to the 1800s from 1955 when the machine is hit by lightning at the end of part 2.
2) Doc hides the machine and it makes its way back to 1955.
3) Marty goes back to the 1800s in the time machine to find Doc. There are now 2 time machines back in the 1800s.
4) Fuel line gets severed on Marty's time machine so they go through the 3rd movie because they can't go into the future without gasoline (or the train) to power the drivetrain on the car.

BUT - there's a second time machine with a perfectly good gas line (and presumably gasoline) that Doc hid. They could have repaired Marty's machine with the parts from Doc's and got the machine running without involving the train, etc.


Here's how I like to think of it as influenced by some FAQs on the trilogy DVD:

First off, as any experienced auto maker can tell you, you should empty the gas tank before storing it for long periods of time

Now Doc's no auto maker so assuming he didn't here's another argument:

Would they really try to retrieve the Delorean and risk something like a cave in that could damage it and possibly cause a time paradox? Knowing Doc, probably not

Now you may ask: "But the mine seemed perfectly stable in 1955 so wouldn't it be the same way in 1885?"

Perhaps, but back then did they really build things very safely? Not really.

Just don't think about it too much. The series is popular for its entertainment value, not because of its confusing plot holes



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03 Aug 2010, 5:57 am

bnorval1 wrote:
t0 wrote:
I also think the first movie was great by itself and should have left it alone. There's a huge plot hole at the start of the third movie that made the entire movie pointless. Which is:

1) Doc gets sent back to the 1800s from 1955 when the machine is hit by lightning at the end of part 2.
2) Doc hides the machine and it makes its way back to 1955.
3) Marty goes back to the 1800s in the time machine to find Doc. There are now 2 time machines back in the 1800s.
4) Fuel line gets severed on Marty's time machine so they go through the 3rd movie because they can't go into the future without gasoline (or the train) to power the drivetrain on the car.

BUT - there's a second time machine with a perfectly good gas line (and presumably gasoline) that Doc hid. They could have repaired Marty's machine with the parts from Doc's and got the machine running without involving the train, etc.


Here's how I like to think of it as influenced by some FAQs on the trilogy DVD:

First off, as any experienced auto maker can tell you, you should empty the gas tank before storing it for long periods of time

Now Doc's no auto maker so assuming he didn't here's another argument:

Would they really try to retrieve the Delorean and risk something like a cave in that could damage it and possibly cause a time paradox? Knowing Doc, probably not

Now you may ask: "But the mine seemed perfectly stable in 1955 so wouldn't it be the same way in 1885?"

Perhaps, but back then did they really build things very safely? Not really.

Just don't think about it too much. The series is popular for its entertainment value, not because of its confusing plot holes



and despite its numerous plot holes, it's also known for having a lot--and I do mean a lot--of "inside jokes" about the entertainment industry, and not only in regards to what was popular in the present, but what was popular at each era in history they go to. Now that's a different kind of attention to detail, and because of it, I can look past the plot holes :)



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03 Aug 2010, 8:33 am

conundrum wrote:
KaiG wrote:
A real plothole is the fact that after Old Biff gives his younger self the Almanac, he's still able to return to his native 2015 (thus bringing the Delorean back to Marty and Doc), even though by the rules of that same movie he should have only been able to return to the alternate future of the crappy hellhole version of 1985 that he created.


True. However, besides the "deleted scene" discussion above, consider this (warning: this may sound a bit lame, but I read it somewhere--I did not make it up):

When Old Biff returned to 2015, the next thing we saw was Marty and Doc getting Jennifer back to the DeLorean. It was dark. We didn't see any other people. Shortly thereafter, they return to 1985 ("1985-A", that is). It is possible that, the moment Old Biff gave Young Biff the almanac in 1955, the world of 2015 changed around Marty, Doc, Jennifer and Einstein but the part of town they were in was not altered noticeably enough for them to realize that anything was wrong.

I either read this on Wikipedia or TV Tropes, because this inconsistency always bugged me, too.



this actually makes sense. time travel is so confusing