The Dark Knight Rises trailer!! !

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GoonSquad
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20 Dec 2011, 12:34 pm

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

also, as for batman begins "i won't kill you, etc." i agree with jory. but, aside from that, it was a REALLY good movie. i wish that ra's al ghul's death was something more like batman attempting to save him, and ra's kills himself like in Batman Arkham City

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Ed5Ni_UAU

(start at 3:50)

The whole 'not killing but not saving' thing isn't the best take on Batman but it isn't without precedent either.

Miller's version in DKR did not kill, but he had no problem forcing people to commit suicide or manipulating people into killing each other.

Personally, I think it makes the character less heroic but more interesting.

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The_Perfect_Storm
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20 Dec 2011, 1:04 pm

GoonSquad wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

It wasn't about maintaining canon or whatever. It's just the fact that it's BS. Precedent or not, it's just silly.

GoonSquad
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20 Dec 2011, 1:47 pm

The_Perfect_Storm wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

It wasn't about maintaining canon or whatever. It's just the fact that it's BS. Precedent or not, it's just silly.

It is not any sillier than the main premise, and it illustrates how twisted and irrational Batman really is.

Batman doesn't make sense because he's crazy and deluded, and on balance, he does more harm than good.

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Kraichgauer
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20 Dec 2011, 1:54 pm

GoonSquad wrote:

The_Perfect_Storm wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

It wasn't about maintaining canon or whatever. It's just the fact that it's BS. Precedent or not, it's just silly.

As I recall from The Killing Joke, the Joker thinks Batman is as crazy as he is, dressing like a flying rodent.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

LexingtonDeville
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20 Dec 2011, 2:33 pm

The_Perfect_Storm wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

It wasn't about maintaining canon or whatever. It's just the fact that it's BS. Precedent or not, it's just silly.

So the deaths of Joker, Penguin and Two-Face in the first 3 movies make sense to you? As i recall, Batman was the reason Two-Face died by throwing up a dozen coins to distract him from his trademark coin.

You can nitpick and cry BS all you like, the fact remains that Batman does not kill.

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GoonSquad
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20 Dec 2011, 3:06 pm

LexingtonDeville wrote:

You can nitpick and cry BS all you like, the fact remains that Batman does not kill.

Yes. Two defining characteristics of the modern version of the Batman are, the Batman does not use guns, and the Batman does not kill.

If those things aren't true, it is not Batman.

Having said this, in darker versions, if Batman thinks you deserve to die, most times he can find a way to make it happen and then rationalize... That's just part of the complexity (and dishonesty) of the character.

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Jory
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20 Dec 2011, 3:10 pm

If you want to play the "that's not how it is in the comics!" card, I'll point out that the reason Batman doesn't kill in the comics is because he knows he's unhinged and he's afraid that he won't be able to stop if he starts, not because he has some moral code.

LexingtonDeville
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20 Dec 2011, 3:15 pm

Jory wrote:

It never was a "psychotic freakout", Jory, i just tend to get carried away. You can pick apart the flaws in the Nolan films till your blue in the face, but at the end of the day, everyone has an opinion and they are therefore entitled to it.

And i'm not going to call you an idiot either, happy now?

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20 Dec 2011, 3:19 pm

Jory wrote:

Yes. Killing is a line he's afraid to cross, but he skirts all the time... That's why I'm puzzled as to why anybody would have problems with what Batman did in the train with Ra's.

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Jory
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20 Dec 2011, 3:23 pm

GoonSquad wrote:

Yes. Killing is a line he's afraid to cross, but he skirts all the time... That's why I'm puzzled as to why anybody would have problems with what Batman did in the train with Ra's.

My problem with it is that he spent the entire movie lecturing the audience about why he refuses to kill his enemies, how that would lower him to their level, etc. Then he kills Ra's, and to make things worse, he makes up some excuse about how this is "not saving" instead of killing. But in the circumstances of that scene, he's killing Ra's. You don't get to spend half the movie propping your hero up on a moral pedestal then have him break his code and not even acknowledge it. This is why I don't have a problem with Batman killing in the Burton films. It was never established that he wouldn't do that. Burton wasn't breaking his own rules. If someone created a fan edit of Begins that deleted all of Bruce's speeches about refusing to kill his enemies, I would like the movie a whole lot more. This is not nitpicking; this is a fundamental flaw that destroys the entire point of the film.

LexingtonDeville
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20 Dec 2011, 3:25 pm

Jory wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

Yes. Killing is a line he's afraid to cross, but he skirts all the time... That's why I'm puzzled as to why anybody would have problems with what Batman did in the train with Ra's.

My problem with it is that he spent the entire movie lecturing the audience about why he refuses to kill his enemies, how that would lower him to their level, etc. Then he kills Ra's, and to make things worse, he makes up some excuse about how this is "not saving" instead of killing. But in the circumstances of that scene, he's killing Ra's. You don't get to spend half the movie propping your hero up on a moral pedestal then have him break the his code and not even acknowledge it. This is why I don't have a problem with Batman killing in the Burton films. If someone created a fan edit of Begins that deleted all of Bruce's speeches about refusing to kill his enemies, I would like the movie a whole lot more. This is not nitpicking; this is a fundamental flaw that destroys the entire point of the film.

So Batman should be a mass murderer with no moral code and just kill everyone in sight till there's no-one left? Making a martyr out of the likes of the Joker or the Penguin would just be pointless.

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20 Dec 2011, 3:29 pm

LexingtonDeville wrote:

So Batman should be a mass murderer with no moral code and just kill everyone in sight till there's no-one left? Making a martyr out of the likes of the Joker or the Penguin would just be pointless.

The point isn't so much that he had a moral code, it's that he had one and violated it, and the movie didn't even acknowledge that. The only solution is to get rid of the code or make Ra's die in an accident or something. You can't have it both ways.

You can do it two ways:

1. Moral code, doesn't kill Ra's.

2. No moral code, kills Ra's.

I would prefer #1, but at least #2 wouldn't be self-contradicting.

LexingtonDeville
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20 Dec 2011, 3:33 pm

Jory wrote:

LexingtonDeville wrote:

So Batman should be a mass murderer with no moral code and just kill everyone in sight till there's no-one left? Making a martyr out of the likes of the Joker or the Penguin would just be pointless.

If your so obsessed with the flaw of Batman's moral code being violated, then why don't you have a meeting with Christopher Nolan and ask him why? And didn't he fail to save Joker, Penguin and Two-Face in the first 3 movies? If that isn't a contradiction, then i'm Alice Cooper's uncle.

GoonSquad
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20 Dec 2011, 3:34 pm

Jory wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

Yes. Killing is a line he's afraid to cross, but he skirts all the time... That's why I'm puzzled as to why anybody would have problems with what Batman did in the train with Ra's.

My problem with it is that he spent the entire movie lecturing the audience about why he refuses to kill his enemies, how that would lower him to their level, etc. Then he kills Ra's, and to make things worse, he makes up some excuse about how this is "not saving" instead of killing. But in the circumstances of that scene, he's killing Ra's. You don't get to spend half the movie propping your hero up on a moral pedestal then have him break his code and not even acknowledge it. This is why I don't have a problem with Batman killing in the Burton films. It was never established that he wouldn't do that. Burton wasn't breaking his own rules. If someone created a fan edit of Begins that deleted all of Bruce's speeches about refusing to kill his enemies, I would like the movie a whole lot more. This is not nitpicking; this is a fundamental flaw that destroys the entire point of the film.

You do get to do that if your hero is not a hero , but a self-deceiving, psychotic phony.

Batman is not a hero, he's a problem. At the very end, Nolan BLAMES Batman for creating the Joker.

I think your real beef is that you want Nolan's Batman to be a hero, but he isn't one. He's just and exceptional and exceptionally broken human being.

edit: damn auto correct... :roll:

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Last edited by GoonSquad on 20 Dec 2011, 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jory
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20 Dec 2011, 3:37 pm

LexingtonDeville wrote:

If your so obsessed with the flaw of Batman's moral code being violated, then why don't you have a meeting with Christopher Nolan and ask him why?

Huh?

LexingtonDeville wrote:

And didn't he fail to save Joker, Penguin and Two-Face in the first 3 movies? If that isn't a contradiction, then i'm Alice Cooper's uncle.

Those movies didn't spend 30 minutes telling us again and again that Batman would never kill. EDIT: Wait, he did sort of kill Two-Face in Part 3 after telling Dick that he shouldn't, didn't he? Oh well, that movie blows anyway.

GoonSquad wrote:

You do get to do that if your hero is not a hero , but a self-deceiving, psychotic phony.

No argument there.

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20 Dec 2011, 3:42 pm

Jory wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

You do get to do that if your hero is not a hero , but a self-deceiving, psychotic phony.

No argument there.

Nolan did not come up with that. That been a theme of Miller and Moore for the last 30 years.

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