No Idea If I'm In Right Place-- Help Please

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You're welcome, sir.

Splunge,

This is a fun conversation.

Two things.

1) I personally don't think you are Autistic. Though, I'm sure a nerve problem affects you, and I'm sorry about that. However, one main characteristic of Aspies is the ability to stick to one line of thought in a field of interest for abnormally long periods. Also, you showed concern about an avalanche of (something, I forget). I'm glad you didn't receive that too. But in truth, Aspie's are always just straight forward and matter-of-fact. We're never out to hurt someone. (Unless they won't leave us alone.) To me, the fact that that thought occurred to you at all shows that you think in a more neuro-typical manner. With the possible exception that the fear was based on personal history. Just an observation.

2) There is a physical (broken knee) difference in Aspies and Autists. Our brains have different proportions. The hippocampus and amydala are smaller than most, while certain other parts of the brain are larger. The amydala and surrounding organs in the middle brain never developed fully in utero or in infantcy, therefore all neural connections made from that age on were made in different patterns than normal. For example, a NT might use that portion of the brain that I lack, and go straight to a thought or emotion or facial expression or voical inflection, while I, missing that section, originally had nothing in its place. And now, through age and practice, I have learned to route through experience and memorization of my study of what NT people do, then recall what they expect and can mimic natural speech and movement. Although, for me, it is completely an intentional and unnatural act.

There are many research articles to prove this phenomenon, here is a short abstract of one for your viewing: http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/53/9/2145

Here are the results and conclusions from that page:

RESULTS: Amygdala volume was significantly smaller in the autistic subjects, both with (p = 0.006) and without (p = 0.01) correcting for total brain volume. Total brain volume and absolute hippocampal volume did not differ significantly between groups, but hippocampal volume, when corrected for total brain volume, was significantly reduced (p = 0.04) in the autistic subjects.

CONCLUSIONS: There is a reduction in the volume of amygdala and hippocampus in people with autism, particularly in relation to total brain volume. The histopathology of autism suggests that these volume reductions are related to a reduction in dendritic tree and neuropil development, and likely reflect the underdevelopment of the neural connections of limbic structures with other parts of the brain, particularly cerebral cortex.
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I rather suspect Aspergers is a group of disorders. Well, not really a group. But simply that everybody's AS isn't caused by the same exact thing. But the end results are incredibly similar. Similar difficulties, similar abnormalities in cognitive functioning and biological brain functioning.

Considering even Schizophrenia doesn't appear to be caused by the same thing but the end results, the symptoms, the thinking styles, the similar brain anatomies are enough to group it together, to make it in the end the same disorder (or group of disorders).

I have little doubt my Aspergers wasn't caused by exacty the same thing as every other person on here. Maybe a few. And the same goes for everyone else on here.

Thus, different causes (which I believe to be a mix of genetics and the physical environment-- i.e., birth complications, infections, the list goes on) yield the same or similar results. Hence, the collective "Aspergers".

Thanks for clarifying Splunge. You are right: the diagnosis is by no means flawless, but it serves its purposes in forming friendship with individuals that share a common experience. It's also rather nifty when you need an extension on an unfinished assignment!

"Splunge,

This is a fun conversation.

Two things.

1) I personally don't think you are Autistic. Though, I'm sure a nerve problem affects you, and I'm sorry about that. However, one main characteristic of Aspies is the ability to stick to one line of thought in a field of interest for abnormally long periods. Also, you showed concern about an avalanche of (something, I forget). I'm glad you didn't receive that too. But in truth, Aspie's are always just straight forward and matter-of-fact. We're never out to hurt someone. (Unless they won't leave us alone.) To me, the fact that that thought occurred to you at all shows that you think in a more neuro-typical manner. With the possible exception that the fear was based on personal history. Just an observation.

2) There is a physical (broken knee) difference in Aspies and Autists."

As I said, my neurological problem is not the part of what is happening to me that I have suspected of being "autism". This is such an overwhelming attack on forming and holding thought that even someone with the fixation you talk about would have his/her concentration (to over-simplify) disrupted by it. And the fact that, against all probability, I occasioonally fight against it to make a point, and succeed partially, causes people to give me no credit for this, and just assume the disruption is not there, or not severe.

I'm straighforward on principle, plus communication is crucial and this gets important stuff said as efficiently as possible. PLUS-- my damaged concentration doesn't allow for anything but getting the thought out as fast as possible, since I go blank every few seconds. So I'm assumed to be rude when I just had no chance to stop and consider any diplomatic stuff.

Message boards are a very, very different way of communicating than verbally. You can take your time, choose when you respond. You can even edit later. No one in the real world knows me the way I come across here, when i come across positively. Spontaneously, I look like an idiot because I'm blank and the brain is so overloaded (with current apparently--- this is very electrical, like having your finger in a light socket) and empty.

I alienate everyone by not being able to throw in the niceties and diplomatic things people require in conversations. I am therefore desperate almost to the point of paranoia about alienating people. This time I remembered to get the right polite things said. The next thirty times I won't, or may not. As I say, boards are easier. But I'm not petitioning to be seen as autistic. I'll decide that I guess. I just am desperate to be heard and understood because it hasn't happened in 25 years.

On #2: I took for granted some physical stuff like you were talking about. I can't go through all that text with my eyes, and I don't need to. My point didn't have to do with whether it has a physical basis or not. You or someone earlier said it did, and I accepted that. I guess I fought to get that point out for nothing. I hope not.

The fear IS based on personal history.

Tell you what, we'll love and accept you no matter what. That sounds like a good plan to me. I think you are very interesting to talk to, so I think you should feel very welcome here. You can take your time and say what you'd really like to say. That's the beauty of message boards.

It's possible I was just patted on the head, and told to sit at the childrens' table. Hope not. Really, any physical causes were really beside the point. It was more about how we frame situations.

Schizophrenia was brought up earlier. That's a prime example of a concept that is definitely connected to real human problems, and real physical causes very probably (I try not to make firm statements if I don't personally know), but which has had a very dubious semantic frame put around it. A set of vague characteristics have been lumped together as "schizophrenia", which almost seem designed to marginalize and "diagnose" as faulty anyone who doesn't feel quite comfortable in this society... and personally, I wonder about anyone who IS comfortable in society as it stands now. Or maybe that's something you can say about psychiatric "diagnoses" in general.

I admit I don't remember the schizophrenia list, but "inappropriate" certainly stuck out like a sore thumb, and the Asperger's list made me think of it instantly. Interpretation is certainly left totally in the hands of upscale superior-minded professionals (doctors, in other words), who are often frustrated as hell to be forced to deal with sections of the public they probably wouldn't even be happy to be passing by on the street. And schizophrenia is passed out as a "diagnosis" as freely as ritalin in some elementary schools.

Yes, I know ritalin has its uses. One argument at a time. Can't stand arguments actually. Let's make it something else.

Laynie, I know that the things you mentioned are common in Aspies, but I by no means think that they are present in all of us. I know several Aspies that have not yet tapped into a special interest to perseverate on. For myself, by special interests tend to change a bit. I also think that concern for the feelings of others is not limited only to NT's; whilst I tend to react differently and oddly to tragic events like bombings, I still feel sad in my own way. I think Aspies can be very empathetic, it just manifests differently. Whilst I can see that the traits that you listed are common to Aspies, I think it's important to not make blanket generalisations like 'Aspies always...' or 'you are not an Aspie unless...'. I think the nature of AS is that people usually have a combination of traits, so whilst a person may be good at comforting others, they may not necessarily understand the complexity of emotion that the other person is feeling. Just saying!

Hi,
This website is a fantastic place to learn more about this stuff. Also, to learn more about characteristics of Asperger's or to learn more about people "on the spectrum," go to Tony Attwood's website, or the O.A.S.I.S. website, or socialthinking.com


Socialthinking.com is Michell Garcia-Winner's website...she is a specialist in social skills thinking...an area where individuals on the spectrum often have deficits. Individuals with Aspergers have difficulty navigating themselves through social situations and have a hard time building & maintaining friendships due to this neurological difference, that of having deficits in social intelligence, something that typically starts developing in early childhood.
I would like to suggest for someone to see a speech & language specialist AND a specialist in spectrum disorders. These are the two key areas...also one's skills in "executive functioning". The speech & language specialist needs to do a complete evaluation that includes assessment in pragmatics and prosody, and understanding of inferences. Individuals on the spectrum often use speech and language in a unique way. The person who does the spectrum evaluation may need info about the person's developmental history, though not always. A specialist can often see fairly quickly when talking to the person as to whether or not they are on the spectrum. Appropriate interview scales must be used in assessment. Many people are not given an appropriate dianosis because they may seem at the outset very typical, and so are not helped. They wonder why they feel like they don't fit in. They want friends, yet cannot navigate themselves through the social world. There is help.

Nope. I am always straight forward, I do not play. I meant it. I welcome you. Sorry if I didn't know the best way in which to say it.

The "tell you what" is something my father used to say a lot. Sometimes I pick the wrong time to use a phrase I've heard before. I try to place phrases at the right time to make sense to people but it doesn't always work.

Anyway, this has been fun, but it's getting more complicated than my understanding will allow. I will go from this conversation now.

Have a great weekend.

Laynie, I have indeed heard of differences between autistic brain construct & neurotypical ones. But from somebody whom I trust knows a lot abt the subject (that, and I'm essentially not doing much science atm) who is rather certified said that there doesn't seem to be much of a brain structural difference between aspies and NT brains that is detectable through wossname. ... The one where they put lots of nodules around your head. (Sorry, I need to remember the name, but I don't.)

Are such things seen through MRI for an aspie? If so, are there any specific sources that I can look @?

I do know that autism is a spectrum, but I'm interested specifically in the neurology of asperger's itself.

Splunge, quite true. Most diagnoses, like Schizophrenia, can be likened to amorphous blobs. I wish to go into research and help clear up all this ruddy mess that the DSM only helps to propogate further because many professionals, including the whole of the APA, find no problem it seems with remaining vague. But at present there still isn't enough information I suppose to try and group them any better. Thus, I think many try to group them according to similar treatments as well as similar behavioral symptoms.

I think it is necessary to have criteria lists so that a professional might have a better idea of what they're dealing with. But since so many disorders or groups of disorders are so poorly defined or defined by only behavioral symptoms, you end up getting this big indefinable mess. I drives me mad.

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Now, as for autistic brain abnormalities, these seem to be inconstant throughout the whole spectrum and every person. There are certainly areas which are more frequently noted as anatomically abnormal (reduced volume of the right anterior cingulate gyrus, abnormality in the Vermis sections VI and VII, Temporal Lobe abnormalities, macrocephaly, etc.). But to my knowledge most of the Limbic abnormalities have all been from a sparse number of cases done postmortem.

I know that Temporal Lobe abnormalities were identified via fMRI in one study in particular. I don't know if this has been replicated though.

I think, so far, the research on anatomical and functional brain abnormalities throughout the spectrum has been kept to a minimum for some reason. Perhaps because now more and more effort is going into genetic research instead. Who knows.