Angry NT Wife Seeking Community

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LOL! That was cool. Made me laugh. I needed that! I thought a good sense of humor wasn't common in most AS's... my husband's idea of a joke is this:

"An alien abducts a human. The alien wants to know what humans eat, so he sets the human free in the wilderness and watches him to see what he will eat. After many days without finding anything to eat, the human begins to starve. Finally he finds a rat and kills it and eats it raw. The alien re-captures the human and from then on, feeds him only raw dead rats."

Scary, huh? Yeah. I really didn't know what to say. He was smiling and giggling to himself though. Glad one of us got it!

To be completely honest, some people with AS will react badly even if you are just upset with your husband as some people take criticism of AS traits personally. This is what I have picked up from reading this forum for a few months. Not all Aspies should be defended for their actions (and same goes with NTs) but I think some people do not realise that. I think try not to get bothered by that if you can. I see what you mean now about wanting similar people to you as you more want to vent rather than interact at this stage (I am not criticising this but now I see where you are coming from).



Yes when I was first told I had AS I read some of his books too



I thought that was what you were implying. You are right that it is not the same as living as an NT but I do understand some of the differences between us and how they affect me. It is the same for him understanding me. Which is about as good as one can get given I can never be NT and my partner can never be autistic.



Well basically with AS-NT relationships, each can learn how the other shows empathy. It is something me and my partner have had to work on. Just communication in general. For example he has to be direct if he is upset with me, not just frown and be quiet as I cannot tell if he is tired, angry, bored or some other feeling. Some things that upset him, well I cannot work out why they do upset him sometimes (mostly I can tell now though) so do not know to react. He tells me "can I have a hug?" or just tells me directly and then I realise he needs attention. Or if I suspect he is upset I will ask rather than assume one way or another. I do care a lot when he is upset, but sometimes I do not realise he is upset unlike most NTs who seem to be able to figure it out without being told directly. He used to think it was because I did not care but now knows I just need some prompting.

As far as reacting in odd ways to things. I tend to react in a way I would hope others react if I am upset. So, this tends to involve me trying to make a joke or try to distract the person. Again, this is something that can be quite inappropriate for some people but most of my friends know that is how I am trying to make them feel better. I have gotten better at doing the right thing though for others over time. It takes effort on my behalf though and sometimes people are not willing to put that effort in.

Anyway, bit of a long story but those are just my own experiences with empathy. I am not sure how other people with AS see it.



Hmm I guess as to whether your husband can change really depends. I do not know him so have no idea. I can really see why you are stuck in a hard place given your limited resources. There is a foreign language section here http://www.wrongplanet.net/forum25.html including French speaking people. Might be a long shot but perhaps someone there will know of an English speaking counselor/psychologist who can help you.



Hmm yes that would be frustrating. It is strange he does not remember what he is told. It sounds like he needs a better assessment as to why he is like this as there might be some other underlying problem to cause him to forget things easily - like something wrong with his executive functioning. I am sure some people with AS need to be taught things over and over but it is not always the case. To be honest, I often forget verbal instructions (even if having been told a dozen times) so my partner writes things down for me (like an email "the house is messy, it is your turn to clean it " and then I can remember easily. There are usually things like that that can be used to help people. But of course someone more qualified is best to ask about it.



Thank you I hope can get some help soon for your situation.

I am confused by the empathy part...if he treats you as one of his obsessions, how is it that he doesn't show you proper empathy...or is it that empathy is really only empathy if it is effective on the person it is being directed towards?..if that makes sense....(sorry..muddleheaded this morning)

Empathy doesn't come automatically for me much of the time. Sometimes, the very best I can do is apologize for being inadequately able to accommodate...Neither I nor my partner are NT, but my partner is a tad more emotionally NT than I am in some ways I guess...and has these emotional needs I sometimes draw a blank to...sometimes when he requires comforting, I grow impatient and get mad at myself for being unable to feel what I am expected to feel...as a result..I can often end up making him feel worse...when that is certainly not my intent...I don't have the same emotional requirements...I am more prone to shutting myself off in my own little world when I am upset...and attempts to interfere only make it worse...Or I will seek it out...like "needing a hug"...I do that too...

Thank you for your compliment. I am unsure when i write, if i am writing the right thing, but just know, i am here to try and help like the other members. It sounds like your meant to be together, with keep bumping into each other all those years. It's like fate was playing a hand in away and sounds romantic. It seems you guys would be perfect for each other. But, you have sacrificed a whole lot. I guess someone had too, with it being like a international romance. In away, it's like your in the wrong place, but for your husband, France is home to him. I not saying it isn't easy for him, but he was able to get back into things he was familiar with, where you lossed everything that you were use too. Is he not aware what you have given up for love? It seems, your husband got the better of the deal. I suppose in away, your not just on the wrong planet, but in away, dealing with a unfamiliar culture and way of life. You truly are Alienated. I think, that for your relationship to work, your husband as to acknowledge what you have given up and how lost you are. I think, he is the only one who can make it right for you, but I am not sure how he can do that. Sounds like your husband needs to be more in touch with what your going through in order to help you. If i was you I would be drunk all the time!! But that isn't the answer, it would only make things worse for your relationship. You need to try and become more independent somehow, like if you was in the states, but in France. I not sure how you can do that with being in a foreign country. But don't feel bad if you feel your writing a lot. We need to know about you and what your going through for us to help. So, write away Feyhera!

Yes, and I find this in almost all the scenarios in our life: At his psychiatrist's, with his family, even with MY parents who are just pleased as punch that I'm married to an aeronautical engineer and living in Paris! Everyone, for one reason or another, is like, "Oh, poor precious little autistic guy... how could you be so mean?!" Oooooo, it just chafes my britches and gets on my very last nerve! It's a bit ironic to me that I'm supposed to take such tender care of his emotions, because he's 'not fit', while his AS just stomps ALL OVER my sensibilities! Grrrr....



Yeah, it's like, I just don't want to create a big uproar on a thread somewhere because I said something that's true for me that doesn't sit well with an aspie. I'm not here to offend. No. I know what it's like to be offended... I'm offended constantly by my unreasonable AS husband trying to rule everything through fear and dysfunction!



Point taken. You're right. Both are needed -- the NT point of view and the AS point of view that has some experience (as you obviously do) in cultivating better communication and such.



Your marriage is obviously a budding success story. It gives me hope that you've come so far.



That's a great idea! I'll see if he would join up here and maybe he can go ask the French folks what they know about for resources in France for anglophones. I wouldn't have thought of that!



Oh dear. I think that's worth bringing up at our next psych appointment. Maybe he needs further testing. I mean, if there's more to his condition than AS and bi-polar disorder, it's just better to know and address it. Hell, we've come this far... why not go for the home stretch, right?



You've helped immensely, Saspie. I'm truly grateful for all the time and care you've taken with me. (((BIG HUGS)))

BINGO! That's the point really. Empathy has an element that is INCLUSIVE of the person you're feeling bad for, otherwise it's more like PITY, and no-one wants to be pitied. It's not enough, for example, to feel bad for an abandoned, helpless baby bird if you're heart doesn't also have space for what the baby bird needs in order to survive. It takes only pity to feel bad for the little bird, but it takes empathy to pick it up and take it to a wildlife rehabilitation center.



But, if you're anything like my husband, don't you rely on empathy from others in order to make it in the NT world? I mean, aren't there support people around you who guide you and give you advice about how to form relationships with NT's at work, school and so on? So, if it's something you partake of, isn't it only fair that aspies make some sort of effort to find it in their hearts to care about lost birds to the point of taking some responsibility for the other living beings around them? This part of AS really, really hurts me to my core, so sorry if I sound all freaked out about it. Again, my issue is with the aspie I live with and with AS itself, not anyone here.



My husband does this too. Honestly, for me, it just feels like a cop-out when he does it. It sounds, to my NT brain and sensibilities, like "Too bad for you that I don't want to care about what's harming you." I'm really sure that's not what's really going on in his head, but, it sure comes off that way and my perception DOES count in the relationship, not just what he MEANT to say. Him not taking responsibility for his half of things just makes things worse.



This is a sore spot for me too. Sorry. It's just that I had a counselor instruct me that whenever he asks for hugs, I should stop whatever I'm doing and give them to him, regardless of how I am feeling at that moment. The point was to reinforce in him that if he asks correctly, he'll get his needs met. Ok. So everytime I have my arms full of clean wash, going down the narrow hall and he intercepts me and asks for a hug, um, he's just showing that he doesn't care that my arms are full and I'm in the middle of doing something. Where do I put the wash? On the floor? Yep. And he gets his hug. And I get disrespect. Nice. That hurts and I find it intolerable.

I'm sorry. I'm just so triggered all the time. I'm a frazzled mess. I think I just need to go for a week long vacation by myself and think about whether I can stay in this completely crazy situation. I can't take care of anyone right now in a way that everyone deserves, least of all myself. Please, all the aspies who might read this, please, try to recognize how much damage can be done and how it isn't just over-reacting NT's that are making too much fuss about no big deal. AS is not harmless. It doesn't just mean a lack of empathy and communication skills. It's so much more than that for the rest of us. And I'm not asking people to feel guilty about their AS. No blame. Just stating things as they are for me.

Last edited by Feyhera on 15 Jul 2009, 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

You are so awesome, Zak! This post is so touching and validating, I actually called my husband at work and read it to him over the phone. He found it to be touching as well and took the opportunity to sincerely acknowledge and thank me for my huge sacrifice by living far from home with an AS/bipolar French guy! I needed that. And thank you for all the encouragement. It's all I really need. I really am a strong and worthy person. I do have some qualities that make it possible for this marriage to make it. I just can't do it alone. And even with my husband's support, the support from others, outside of the marriage, is soooo needed for me.

About what you said about making France a little U.S-away-from-the-U.S. -- I have plans to try to enroll at the American University here and get my Masters in Psychology. Yeah, I know, "Psychology?!" Go figure, right? Really, it is my true calling. I was heading that way even before I found my husband this last time. And now, with all the gaps I'm finding in the field of Adult Aspergers and the lack of support out there for spouses, and being probably the only anglophone in France willing to go get the certification to practice in France and consult with English-speaking families who are dealing with adult AS -- wow! There's a place for me here to make a tiny piece of the U.S. in a counseling practice. Good idea? I'm pretty jazzed about it myself. And so is our current marriage counselor (he speaks English and knows a bit about adult AS and is very excited about me getting involved professionally). So, there is some light at the end of the tunnel. It's not all bad. It's just the day-to-day life that is killing me right now. But finding you guys is a real gift. I'm feeling so much better now than a few hours ago. Thank you so very much.

And Zak... your words were like medicine for my broken heart... I hope you know how special you are. ((((((HUGE HUGS FROM BOTH OF US))))))

I have been seeing these kinds of posts a lot lately, and the trend in all of them seems to be that an NT married an Aspie in the hopes that they would be able to change them into an NT. And, no offense, but the thing that you and the rest (my wife included) don't seem to realize is that you can't just keep hammering behaviors into us over and over and think it will eventually become automatic. You, by your own admission, belittle him like a child daily for the way he eats. Do you honestly feel that this will have a positive outcome? Perhaps my reaction is colored by my own experience with my wife, but the attitude is eerily similar. You complain about a lack of empathy on his part, yet it doesn't occur to you that constantly nitpicking about something as trivial as how you chew your food isn't going to make him eager to interact with you or work with you. My wife does that and I live in constant fear up upsetting her with the slightest misstep. And as a result of that, I am very weary of communicating with her at all for fear of her attacking me again for making a mistake.
If somebody told you that it was the social norm to walk around with your arms held above your head and fingers crossed, and they told you this every single day, do you think the behavior would become automatic??? The things that you (not you specifically, I mean NT's in a general sense) ask us to do to fit in better are, for us, like tensing a muscle or trying to do calculus in your head. It is exhausting.

You sound like you are either a very selfish and self-involved person, or are going through a selfish period.
There is no room for selfishness in marriage.
No offense.

I wouldn't put it that way... She has certainly made sacrifices, but I think they are sacrifices to a fantasy in her heard, and now she is upset that the fantasy isn't reality.

Feyhara, some of the difficulty you are experiencing can be traced, I think, to this rather indulgent attitude you've encountered, where your husband's every flaw can be written off as "oh, just be nice to the poor emotional cripple". I find that attitude to be annoyingly condescending - like saying that you have to play Stepin Fetchit to a loved one in a wheelchair because "he just can't do anything for himself, the poor cripple". (I'd like to think that Dr. Stephen Hawking would have a few choice words to "say" about that!)

It's nice that he's got a job, but if he is indeed an aeronautical engineer, then he's in one of the few career fields where AS can be a positive asset. What matters is how good he is at his job, not how well he interacts - he's not going to be fired for being unable to relate to people any more than a world-class heart surgeon is going to be fired for having a lousy bedside manner.

Incidentally, I'd never heard of Maxine Aston before a few days ago, but the thread here on WP where I did hear of her was not exactly complimentary (words like "quack" and "unreferenced, unfootnoted papers" were used). I second the suggestion to look into the works of Tony Attwood, and go ahead and have a peek around the site as well. (Take a look into the Dino-Aspie Ex-Cafe - that's where a lot of us older aspies who reached adulthood without the diagnosis existing hang out.)

My goodness! Culture shock AND AS shock. No wonder you are reeling. You need to find the American or English expatriate community immediately and you need to find a woman friend who is willing to listen to your pain. Good luck.
There is also Aspires, another online group for AS and NT marriages.
Your plan for college sounds like a good plan. It will give your mind something else to focus on, may give you some friends who speak English, and might give you a particular direction.

Here is something that has helped me throughout my life. My mother, may she rest in peace, was married to an AS (which I lately realized about a decade after I realized I have AS) She told me over and over that I should never ask anyone for what they are not going to give me.
I realize now how I saw it worked out in her life. She would ask Dad if he wanted to go to church with her. He always said no, and she went without him. She asked if he wanted to go to the movies, he always said no, and she went without him. She did this all without resentment. She would ask permission to go on trips with me and he always gave it. She knew there were emotional supports he could not give and she had a network of girlfriends. She never asked him to stop drinking. Whenever she would ask him to do something he would not do, it was always a formality, to be polite just in case he might want to go somewhere.
Only once that I know of did she force an issue. I was living in Japan and had sent my parents plane tickets to come visit us. Dad would not go until she said, ok, she was going to go with his brother. So he came reluctantly, and both of them had a great time and Dad still talks about the fun he had there. (He does not discuss the terror he had in traffic.)

The NT partner isn't the only who got married. What about what the AS expected from the NT going into those vows? It seems you and my husband both had some pretty high expectations of your NT wives if you expect them to comply with all the rigidity, social awkwardness and lack of outward empathy, let alone the disrespect that goes along with thinking your AS comes first all the time. In any case, neither of us knew he was an aspie before we married. His life was a complete shambles when I found him after 30 years separated by an ocean. But, if you read my other posts, you might have seen that we knew each other as children, were each other's first loves, and as far as we both knew at the time of our wedding, he had Bipolar Disorder and that had been addressed pretty successfully. Surely, I would never have married him thinking I should want to change him. But now, with the diagnosis of AS in the marriage, at least one of us has to change, preferably both. And so far, it's only been me who has. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask him to try to meet me halfway. Isn't that what married people do? Well, if there's going to be all these expectations placed on me about what I have to do to facilitate his ability to have his career back and maintain relationships with this son and parents and so on, I think the least he could do is trust me as the NT in the relationship to give him good advice -- like having decent table manners so he doesn't gross out his bosses and clients at company luncheons.



No, he belittles me by being consistently rude and belittles himself by putting himself in a position, at 46 years of age, of having his friends, family and co-workers so grossed out by his eating habits that they don't want to eat at the same table with him. I'm only the messenger and I'm also the only one still willing to stick it out with him and try to help him get to a place where he can have normal life skills that will help him have better human relations, and thus a better, fuller life. When I found him, he was living with monks in a monastery in the Alps. Even his parents had given up on him ever being able to be in "normal" society ever again. I don't think you really know what you're talking about here. And I think it's not very cool to defend rude people's right to be rude. I'll tell you what I tell him: He has the choice -- and no-one is forcing him -- to live out here with the rest of us trying to do what the rest of us are doing, or he can take his need to be rude and disgusting where no-one's feelings will be hurt. And guess what? We ALL are faced with that reality -- not just aspies. All of us are complying with social norms and all of us are not having our way all the time. It's just how things are. So hate the NT's of old for making those rules -- it wasn't me or your wife. We're just spending our time and energy trying to help you understand the importance of having good manners, that's all. You're right. We should maybe consider doing something else with our time, energy and love. Sounds good to me at this point.



No, I report about a lack of empathy on his part...



If you recall, I said, and I quote: "I know it sounds trivial, but it's indicative of the sort of 6 year-old social level he's at."




Hence the problem and hence my bringing it up. It's not that either partner is bad or wrong, it just seems that there's some gap there, some missing connection that has both feeling misunderstood and treated like dirt. That's not good, don't you agree?




Do you think that when I was a little kid, I didn't eat with my mouth wide open? Of course I did. We all did. It's natural to do so. Do you also think it wasn't uncomfortable for me and all the other NT's around you to learn not to. Do you think it came naturally? Do you believe our mothers only said it once and we thought, "Oh, makes sense. Guess I better stop"? No. We balked. We fought it. We didn't want to. We had to be told over and over and over again, too. Thing is, we had a built-in need to please our parents, to comply with what we were told was socially acceptable. We didn't decide that the world was our personal playground where we can make our own rules and flip off the people around us who took care of our needs. And we needed to fit in. It was and is, we sensed deeply, a part of basic survival in the world. I can't speak for aspies. But as an NT, I can tell you that if my mother had told me repeatedly when I was little that it was necessary, if I wanted to be socially acceptable, to "walk around with your arms held above your head and fingers crossed", I would currently be a person, like everyone else, walking around with my arms held above my head and fingers crossed.

And anyway, eating with your mouth open ruins everybody else's appetite... why don't you care about that, even if it weren't so "trivial"?



Well, dealing with the unreasonable disrespectful demands of an entitled self-absorbed aspie husband is pretty darn exhausting, but here I am.

I'm only responding to you to tell you that you're lack of empathy is worse than my husband's. Thanks for that. I feel much better now.

wow, you have been through a lot, and have a lot on your plate, not just with living with a person you don't understand (and who doesn't understand you) but also cultural and language barriers, and isolation to boot. My heart goes out to you.
My husband is not diagnosed, but my son is, and I notice so many simiarities between the two of them (social awkwardness, dislike of loud noises, bright lights, crowds, etc, and yes, a seeming lack of empathy) that, for all intents and purposes, I treat my husband as if he did have AS.

[/This is a sore spot for me too. Sorry. It's just that I had a counselor instruct me that whenever he asks for hugs, I should stop whatever I'm doing and give them to him, regardless of how I am feeling at that moment. The point was to reinforce in him that if he asks correctly, he'll get his needs met. Ok. So everytime I have my arms full of clean wash, going down the narrow hall and he intercepts me and asks for a hug, um, he's just showing that he doesn't care that my arms are full and I'm in the middle of doing something. Where do I put the wash? On the floor? Yep. And he gets his hug. And I get disrespect. Nice. That hurts and I find it intolerable] (I'm sorry, I don't know how to do the quote thing)

this seems to be unrealistic advice to me, how often, in the real world, do we get what we want as soon as we ask for it. I mean, if we go to a restaurant and order food, they don't just bring it to us right away, we have to wait for them to cook it first.

What I would do, both my son and my husband in that situation, is this "honey, I would love to give you a hug, but my arms are full, why don't you help me take this laundry to where it goes so I can give you that hug", then you boh get what you want. It's not that he doesn't care that your arms are full of laundry, it just didn't occur to him.

For example, here is a very common type of scenario that happens in my house. I took the sheets off the bed to wash them, that night
hubby: "I'm tired, let's go to bed"
me: "okay, but the sheets are in the dryer and the bed's not made"
hubby "oh, okay" and he continues to sit on the couch and watch tv while I go get the sheets, then he follows me to the bedroom, and watches me make the bed. when I'm done, he crawls into bed, happy as a lark and promptly falls asleep, sleeping like a baby all night long, while I toss and turn all night because I'm so mad. when I bring it up the next day, he stares at me blankly and says "but you never asked for help"

here's what happens the next time I wash the bedding
hubby: "I'm tired, lets go to bed"
me: "okay, but the sheets are in the dryer and the bed's not made. can you get the sheets while I check on the kids, and then we can make the bed"
hubby: "yeah, sure sweetheart" he turns off the tv, goes and get the sheets, we make the bed together, and then both get a good night sleep.

we have to be very clear about what we expect from them. Things that we take for granted, like her arms are full of laundry, I can't get a hug until she puts it down, don't even occur to them.

I hope that helps a little

You are getting beyond yourself. Do not misconstrue my forthrightness and succinctness for a lack of empathy. On the contrary, I can certainly sympathize for you as well as empathize with you.
I have been married for 15 years.
Much of it has been hard; true agony for years at a time. My wife is NT, I am aspie, yet we are both the products of abusive and alcoholic households.
Much of what I thought to be unacceptable, unreasonable, and malicious for the first 10 years of my marriage was quite actually inadequacy on my part. This does not change the fact that I suffered immensely.
The 1-2-3 version and the inescapable truth is that we must not choose to look to another person (spouse or not) for what me must look inward for to find.
Inner peace comes from, well, within. Use your time for growth and improvement and you can transcend your dissatisfaction with your husband.
Focus your energies on giving love; unconditional love.
Love does not look for its own benefit.
Persevere and always choose to benefit the other person in your marriage.
Persons who divorce and remarry are fated to repeat their failures. Stop looking where you know you cannot find what you want. Otherwise, you are reducing yourself and your marriage to a mere self-fulfilling prophecy. You are so much more than that.
Look inside and you will see.
You have the power to choose to do what is right, what is beneficial for your mate and your marriage. Even if your husband (or anyone) were to choose to leave you, you will have the dignity and knowledge of the fact that you did what was right.