Angry NT Wife Seeking Community

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This level of crossed wires is the reason I can only deal extensively with other people who are on the spectrum...most people in my "support network" are Aspies...or close to being aspies..or are Aspie-friendly...otherwise they would tend to not want to hang around us....and we interact with each other in ways that are comfortable to us....We are not rude to each other...We are able to understand and handle it when someone's behavior gets out of whack...If we find an injured bird, we do take it to a wildlife rehab...If we find a stray kitten we immediately adopt it and bring it into our home...I don't look at other people while they are eating..so I don't care what they do when they eat...and nobody watches or or makes comments on my own deplorable table manners either...

This sorta stuff is the reason my partner..many years ago..left his mature intelligent responsible (but sorta crazy at the time) NT partner to go chasing after a spazzy disorganized non-driving woman-child...(me)
They just didn't get along....Everything he did made her mad...He could not live up to her expectations...they were sorta alien to him.

Whew, after those couple of mean posts, your calm kindness is very welcome. Thanks for pointing me to those other places on the forums. I'll definitely check them out.

I hear ya' about the "poor precious handicapped guy" thing. Irks me. And I am getting it from all sides. Even my own adult kids who pity their "sweet, unassuming, docile" stepfather. They don't have to live with his controlling, manipulative, entitled behaviors. Or his rigidity and coldness. It really makes me feel alone. So, I'm a bit tough with him, yes, it's true. But I'm no tougher on him than I was with my own teenagers back in the day. And the reality is, in personal relationships, he acts like a kid not an adult. I can't keep offering him the benefit of the doubt that he's a full adult if he consistently doesn't want the job! So, I don't get why people are so flabbergasted when I seem to condescend to him. The fact is if I spoke to him the way I'm speaking here he'd just look at me blankly. I'm forced by his reactions to slow down my speech and use simple words and very few of them. And it's best if I just write him an email. That way no-one can say I sounded impatient or patronizing and so on. I'd really like to see some of these people who tell me to go easier on him do this and not want to run into the street tearing their hair out!

About his career: He actually got fired 6 times in the past, before we reunited. But once I started coaching him about some basic office behavior (like no gossip and no, you don't threaten your boss that you'll quit in order to get a raise (!)) he's reported that some of his previous issues are not cropping up. He's also bipolar and in the past had some pretty ferocious psychotic breakdowns, each of which led to losing a job. I've been his 'reality tour guide' since we got married and so far, he's trusted me to tell him when something is real or is just an illusion, like in that movie "A Beautiful Mind". In many ways, he is a willing 'patient' to the 'unpaid psych aide' I've become for him. And I don't think I could've gotten this far in the marriage if he'd totally poo-pooed everything. So the bipolar stuff is actually going pretty well and really, it's normally quite a devastating disorder.

I did find a few things myself that didn't speak well of Maxine Aston before seeing her, but she's in the UK, speaks English and was the only one addressing what she refers to as "Cassandra Syndrome" and I've got it bad, for sure. So, we took the gamble and went to see her. She's ok. Not terrible. But not someone full of info or helpful advice. I think I knew as much as she did just from my own reading. I don't want to dis her but I won't bother going back. I got as much out of her as I think I'm ever going to get from that 2 hour session, which felt just a bit rehearsed and not specific to our case at all.

Last edited by Feyhera on 15 Jul 2009, 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wow, your mom was a saint, and yes, may she rest in peace. I hear what your mom's philosophy was and it may in fact be the only way to stay with my husband. I just have to forge my own life out of what's available here for me. I'm not too much of a group person, more of the type who likes a few really awesome friends. But, a support group would be good. Maybe.... hey! Maybe I could start an Anglophone AS Spouse support group here in Paris. I'm gonna' think about that one...

Thanks for sharing your mom's story with me. I'm glad to hear that some AS/NT marriages make it. I understand she had to live without a lot of the normal love stuff that everyone else (including my AS husband) can take for granted, and it must have been lonely sometimes. I'll try to find ways of integrating her methods because I do see the wisdom of the premise.

Thanks again!

Helps a lot! You are exactly the kind of person I was hoping to find here: Someone who doesn't need me to defend how I feel because you already know how I feel... 'cause it's happening to you too! Not that I'm happy you're going thru it as well, just that if we have to go thru' it, isn't it nice to be able to talk to someone who knows what it's like?

It's so funny... you used the bed making example and that happens here all the time! And yes, I have to be very explicit about what exactly I need from him. Usually that works. There are times though, like last night, where I just can't believe what I'm dealing with. After leaving the apt at noon, before he even got out of bed, and spending the entire day visiting my friend and her new baby -- 9 hours of metro, getting lunch for everyone, helping out with the baby -- I came home and announced that he was going to have to make dinner because I was exhausted. My hubby says, no, he doesn't want to because he's spent 4 hours putting kitchen cabinet doors in. I said, yes, I really need the help. He grudgingly sort of shrugs what I think is his agreement. I laid down for awhile. I got up and dinner still wasn't being made at 9pm. When I asked him, "Didn't you make dinner?" he answered, "No, I wasn't hungry" and then he was shocked and had no idea why I became so upset. Grrr. Like you described, I tossed and turned all night while he slept like an innocent child. But, it's my job to let it go. And I don't like that job. I, in fact, HATE that job. Because, I know for a fact that, even if I do get upset, nothing will touch his heart -- not yelling, not crying, not silence, not leaving, not discussing it, -- NOTHING! I am doomed to it just repeating itself over and over again. That's what makes me wonder if I'm really cut out for this. I DON'T want the job of being the resident b**ch, or the weepy complainer, or the mommy to the lost little King Baby, or any of the other stupid roles I've been offered so far. And hearing some of the ugly responses I've gotten from a couple of the aspies here, it just reinforces in me that, wait a minute... they're right... why am I here doing this?... it's not appreciated... I'm not having any fun... he's fine as long as he's in his routine and allowed to do whatever he wants, so he probably wouldn't miss me much... what's the friggin' point?! I do not want to be a rescuer -- his or anyone else's! It was not what I signed on for! And guess what? He's not suffering from his AS... everyone else in his life is! Why should I SAVE THEM FROM HIM? I've got lots I could be doing instead and not have all these childish issues with an emotionally stunted man-child!! *pant* *pant* *pant*

Ok. I'm done. For now. Sorry. It just hurts sooooooooo much!! !! !

But hey, JD, thanks so much for this awesome insightful post. I really hope we can hang out here on the forums a bit once in awhile. That's if I stay...

I think you're brave and really strong for hanging in there with your family! Be well!

It helps that I have a lot of support and understanding, I don't know how I would be if I didn't have that. It also helps to know that for all the little, and big things he does that are infuriating at times, all the times that he seems so insensitive, or even just plain selfish, that my husband really does love me and wants to make me happy, he just needs to know exactly what it is that would make me happy, because he can't figure it out on his own.

Do you know that? because that's important, sometimes it's the only thing that gets me through at the times that I'm really hurting and angry, which I know you are right now.

I went though my whole life with out the help of a diagnosis, so no one attributed any of their frustration with me to a neurological issue I could not control nor hide. They just hated me.

Same here. I just figured it out this year after reading info on aspie websites to understand my aspie son, then I scored off the charts on the aspie test. I guess I had zero self-awareness.

Yeah, I think I do know that he loves me. I mean, he must. I don't think I could live with someone like me when I'm so hurt and angry. He takes a lot and he doesn't seem to ever hold a grudge. There is so much about him that I like. More than what I don't like, really. It's just the stuff I don't like just seems to get in the way of enjoying him and our happiness. Because, when I'm not triggered, I'm happy with him. We cuddle. We take walks. We go out to dinner... in Paris. Wow, right? And he's a perfect match for me in, um, bed. (can I say that? eek!) I'm drawn to him, like a moth to flame and he definitely shows me that he feels the same. If this baby crap would just go away.... aargh.... it just chokes me up... it's like I'm grieving, like he died, like the boy I fell in love with was murdered by this crazy guy who lurks around the apartment talking about time travel and scientology. And takes the bread off of other people's tables at restaurants without asking because they aren't eating it.

*whimper*

But, you've made me think of how lovely the sweet side of him is and I was typing this just as he walked in the door from work. He's his usual smiling gentle self and I'm actually glad to see him. I want to throw my arms around his neck and cover him in kisses, but I can't these days. I've become wary to let my guard down. That's when he relaxes and starts saying and doing stupid brutish things. And then it's, "nice feeling gone". But I'm so pleased to have at least been able to type out my feelings, even if I don't feel I can share them directly with him anymore. I miss it. Maybe it will heal soon. I hope so.

Off to go make dinner! I'll check back in a bit to see if there's any new posts. Thanks all!

I didn't know I had Asperger's until 6-7 months ago. It is a label, nothing more. Having a name for what I am did not change what I am. And I didn't expect any more from my wife than what she presented when I met her.



I did read your other posts, and these facts only reinforce my opinion. If he has A.S., he ALWAYS had it. Yet you seem to state that the beginning of your marital problems was his recent diagnosis. The only thing that the diagnosis can change is your attitude towards him. He is still the same person. But now you *know* that the things you don't like about him are part of his very core and for the most part, as unchangeable as your need to have friends and be social.



Why is that important to him? His job doesn't sound like the type that is contingent upon successful social interaction. I have job where that is that case, and I just don't go to lunch with everybody. When I do, the stress and anxiety of it has my stomach in knots, and it is physically painful. This makes even attempting to eat nauseating for me, and I have actually thrown up on many occasions. Is this really something your husband wants, or is it something you want for him?





Actually, no, it is not a choice. He HAS to integrate, to some degree, just to survive. And that is true of you as well. It is not a choice, and he doesn't have to accept every ridiculous social norm that you place on him, and neither do I.



So you are here just to inform us of his apparant lack of empathy? (<--sarcasm, look we can adapt a little...) You are complaining. Quibbling over the definition is futile.



A six-year-old NT. You are trying to turn him into an NT.



Yes, I do agree. And my point is, again, wouldn't the "gap" have been there the entire time?



No, it doesn't come naturally for anybody...but picking up social behaviors and understanding that it disturbs others DOES come naturally for YOU. Not so for us.



Yes, you do have the built-in... WE DON'T.



Acutually, from the outside perspective of a lot of Aspies...it looks like that's exactly what NT's do.



Again, we don't have that.

A reminder - this is a support site, and this is someone who has come seeking information and assistance. Attacking the OP because your own experiences are different or hurtful is not appropriate... just wanted to make a comment now, before there is an issue that arises. I appreciate the civility that much of this thread has had, and look forward to it continuing on. Feyhera, check your inbox when you have a moment - TIA!


M.

It should, then, also be noted that this is a support site full of Aspies, and anybody posting here should be careful not to add emotion and malice into an Aspie's post where there is none. There is a difference between attacking and stating your logical view of a situation without sugar-coating it.

Heh, when I read this the first thing I thought was "how ironic!" Perhaps your husband thinks it's funny because a simple experiment gives such a messed-up conclusion, but it's ironic in that many Aspies will use this simple type of logical reasoning to conclude some pretty messed-up, unbalanced things. Does your husband know that he does this too? Would he make jokes like this as a way to make fun of his own awkwardness, or is he completely in denial or clueless?

One thing I find really helpful for an Aspie to realize how much his own AS can suck, is by giving the Aspie a taste of his own medicine. It's almost like holding up a mirror to his face and reflecting all the bad things about AS back to him. My perhaps mistaken impression is that many Aspies really resist learning lessons if you try to tell them directly; they think that the lesson is true only because you yourself make it that way, and not because reality (independent of you) makes it that way. Consequently they are relegated to learning the lessons on their own. The plus side to learning lessons on their own is that they have first-hand experience to back up why they think a certain way, and not relying on others' words at face value, which can be loaded with prejudice. The big downside, however, is that learning occurs so awfully slowly, it's like having to re-invent the wheel every... single... time.... but when they themselves have to deal with somebody else's AS, they will draw their own conclusions about "wow, this part of AS sucks to deal with." Once your husband reaches that point, then all you'd have to do is make the connection to him between the AS of somebody else, with your husband's AS. Your husband might not be great at empathy, but after an exercise like this he'll learn! He'll also get a better sense of the frustration you're going through, because he'll have felt it firsthand. It'll take a lot of time, and seemingly infinite patience on your part, so you'll have to decide for yourself if it's worth it. It may take years to see any results. Also, unfortunately what I've learned is that you can only help those who want to be helped, otherwise the other person will just think you're an ass.

Of course all that would require being around another person with AS, but that could be of benefit to your husband as he can have a fellow Aspie friend and work on social skills with that friend. Do you know of other Aspie groups in your area whom you could contact in this regard? There's only so much you can get out of an internet forum, and I'm sure being able to speak face-to-face with another sympathetic person about your situation would help immensely. I hope all this might help things a bit. I'm undiagnosed AS so yeah I'll never know what it feels like to be NT in an NT-AS relationship, but having been in an AS-AS relationship before I know it's no picnic dealing with another person's AS. When I realized that the things I didn't like about the partner were things I either struggled with in the past, or things I inadvertently did, it was truly revealing and I tempered my bad traits quite a bit. It was also helpful to know that there were some AS traits I did like in my partner, so I made sure to try not to temper those within myself. Knowing that much helps a lot with self-esteem. Surely there are some AS traits that you like in your husband? If so, it'd be great to let him know of those things too. Good luck! You aren't alone.

I am glad i could help and hope I didn't offend your husband with what i said. I think you should keep this website just for you, where you can feel you can talk and vent. You don't want to unnecessarily offend your husband with any of your posts. You need to talk and vent, have a place you can go to like that show "Cheers". Maybe the Wrong Planet can be that for you, I don't know.
I can't believe how many responses your receiving on here. I like reading all the posts. Your little fingers must be worn out. I hope you keep coming back and people keep responding. Your doing a great job with your responses and how your explaining your situation.
I think you have a good idea there, about going back to college to study psychology. It's a subject you can already relate too from your past work and will also help you put your mind somewhere and feel better. I don't know, but to me, it feels perhaps your taken for granted a bit, in being like the stay at home house wife. Like one of those fifties house wives. If the family and children feel like there on your husbands side, you must feel like the bad guy in the marriage. That isn't good. It seems to me, that you have your husbands best interests at heart, with trying to help him function better in society, at work, etc. But like a couple of the above posts, it doesn't come natural for AS. A lot of people here have posted some good ideas. I think though, in away, you will have to play the role of like the mother-wife. I don't know how that will work in a relationship. But there are members here that have posted who know about NT-AS relationships and maybe they can help you and your husband find that great relationship. It is good that your also going to marriage counseling. How is that working out?

No, a diagnosis of AS is also a place to start working toward MUTUAL understanding and finding ways for BOTH partners to get their needs met.



Ok you read my posts, but I think you misunderstood. We met when we both were children. At 14, I couldn't be expected to be able to pick up high-functioning autism. Sure, he did some things that were annoying, but what boy doesn't use annoying behavior to show off to girls? My mom didn't notice anything at the time or she wouldn't have let him come around and spend time with me. Then 30 years passed with only 3 phone calls in the intervening time. I should add that his English had deteriated since we lost contact and so even though we could talk to each other about the big obvious things, details were tough. And even if he'd been an American, he's the one with non-typical neurology, and could never be expected to report the subtle relational issues his friends and family were experiencing with him. I only figured out what was up with him by coming online and going to a bipolar forum looking for support after we'd been married for two years and his "weird" behavior started to cause trouble. At first, it's easy to think that it's a difference in culture, or a language barrier moment, or he's just being an a**hole. It was someone at the bipolar forum who alerted me to check into AS. It actually took forgiveness and empathy for me to not just say, "screw this!" and walk away at that point, yet you see it as me setting myself up for disappointment. So, I did some reading on the net and then started ordering books from Amazon, then once we were both pretty convinced it was AS, we started looking for real live human being professionals to help us find ways to cope. I found Maxine Aston in the UK last December, we made the appt, took the train, paid 500 pounds, she tested him, announced he's got AS and then proceeded to tell me that there was no hope. Like you are seeming to do as well. I think your assessment of our/my handling of how and when we found out and looking for some way to blame me for not knowing he was AS or if I knew, why did I think it was ok to try to help him regain a life in this NT world just takes my breath away. It mirrors the coldness I experience from all the rest of the people around me who don't know what it's like to live this life. And just because you are an aspie doesn't qualify you to address the issues of the NT's who try like hell to stay close to their aspie loved ones. You really don't know how bad it can be and THAT is a trivialization of something very serious indeed -- the death of a marriage 30 years in the making. I'll go if that turns out to be the best thing. But I'm not there yet and I don't think it's very kind of you to make it a platform to shake a finger in the NT world's face. I'm one person. And I'm doing the best I can. I think that escapes you. And even tho I don't know you, it hurts. Just so you know.



First, let me just say that I'm really sorry about how you feel when you go out to eat with others. It sounds really awful for you.

Here in France, food is everything. They have a formal sit-down Cordon Bleu restaurant right there in his company's building instead of the cafeteria you find in big companies at home and they have a 3 course meal at lunch every single work day and everyone is expected to attend. And they also have big multi-billion dollar contracts with companies like Boeing and Airbus and very often have visiting dignitaries (VP's and such) who they entertain. My husband is a senior engineer and architect for parts of the new planes, the A380 and the Boeing 787, so good manners are an absolute MUST. So is daily showering, shined shoes, clean haircut and shaved face, clean nails and so forth. That 'training' took me a full year. Should I just let his hygiene issues go, let him just 'be himself' and show up smelly and wearing plaid pants and a striped shirt? Oh, and wow! You should've seen the fanny pack he used to insist on wearing anytime he left the house for the last 20 years. At his last performance review before his latest raise, they told him that if he'd gotten rid of the fanny pack, they would've advanced him sooner. Oh, then he listened to me about getting rid of that damn thing and getting a briefcase. Sheesh!



There is a definite difference between trying to turn someone into an NT and trying to help someone whose life ended up in the gutter, at least partially because of AS, learn some NT skills so they can cope better with a world they don't understand.




Then isn't it a natural conclusion that if an aspie wants to learn how to be in a world full of NT's and have at least somewhat 'normal' relationships with people -- at least to the point where he stops getting beat up by strangers outside of bars after offending them (which used to happen to my husband0 -- that he might turn to an NT who loves him and try to learn a few 'tricks of the trade'? Why are you so adamant that you have the right to maintain a status quo that includes things like, it's ok to eat with your mouth open? Where in this world would that be acceptable?



Understood. That's why I try to help my husband with what I DO have built-in. Why would you deny him the chance to fit in a little if he can? He at least gets the reason why it's important. And he does try. And his manners have improved a lot since we first found out what was up for him. He really doesn't want the right to offend because he's not NT. Somewhere else I said this, let me say it again, "Having a diagnosis of AS is an explanation for why you do these things, not an excuse."



Huh? Are you actually blaming individual, modern NTs for the rules of etiquette and good manners invented by people who lived hundreds of years ago? We're ALL just trying to comply! None of us is making this stuff up! It's been around for like ever!



Look, there's actually a good reason why a certain standard in manners has developed thru human history. To the NT brain that can pick up the difference between the guy who eats with his mouth open and the guy who eats with manners, some unfelt conclusions go on. When we see a man with manners, we understand that he has chosen to comply with social norms. That implies that he probably also follows the law. A man who follows the law doesn't tend to stab you when your back is turned. On the other hand, a man who eats any ol' way he wants, disregarding the social norms, is signaling to the NTs around him that he also doesn't give two hoots about the laws of the land. This man can be construed as possibly dangerous, but at the least, a rebel who probably doesn't share a common need for civic order and safety. So, good manners aren't really as trivial as you might think. They are a form of communication -- communication is a tough thing between NTs and AS's right? So, why not consider using good table manners as a COMPROMISE with your NT brethren now that you understand why we need to see them. Is it really asking too much?

Actually, I shared only that one post of yours because it was just so amazingly spot on and really spoke to how he and I see ourselves and our long lost love. He was just as blown away as I was. And he doesn't offend over things like me reaching out for help. He's super glad that I spent my day getting some help from people who know a thing or two about what we're living with. Yes, "we're living with". Because the AS, and my inability to cope with it, are devastating OUR marriage and that makes us both very unhappy.



Yeah, I've been at this all day now. And good thing I type 65 words per minute, and more when I'm passionate or have a lot to say. I took a break to make and eat dinner, but then got right back on. My husband was very happy to see me feeling better and we had a great interaction during the meal. He just popped off to bed and kissed me good night, saying, "You are amazing. I don't know what I'd do without you." Aaaah. Make my heart melt.



Yup, that's what I was thinking, too. Plus, I do have the not-so-secret hope of doing research into Adult AS and maybe helping advance the ideas around how families/spouses can cope. I mean, healer heal thyself, right? And talk about motivated to find answers, right?



Now that you say it, yes, I do feel like the bad guy in the marriage. And my deep instinct really wants to protect my husband, even if it means leaving him so he doesn't have to deal with my 'evil NT demands'. I am actually pretty conflicted and the weird cross messages I tend to get from all over the place doesn't help either, I can tell you.



Yes, I've got lots of new leads to follow and ideas to try out and so, for the most part, this has been a positive experience. I mean, no-one can expect to be understood by everyone and, certainly, I'm sure the aspies here that feel I don't understand where they're coming from could at least acknowledge that I'm not in the best space right now to be super patient... especially with anything to do with AS. I'm a bit raw right now and I really hope I haven't offended anyone too badly. But everyone has been civil and open and that's very cool.



The counseling is good. We just found a new guy who seems to really get us. This is our 3rd try. And, it's worth noting that it has been my husband who found each of them, on his own, without me ever asking. Well, except Maxine Aston, but I don't consider her a marriage counselor. She's a diagnostician if she's anything. Anyway, this new guy appears to have both of our interests at heart, not just the diagnosed person. That's a relief, I have to say. And he doesn't go in for the whole, "he's got AS, he can't help it" thing. This new counselor straight-up said that he expects BOTH partners to make concessions and compromises. That we BOTH have to learn new ways of coping and communicating better. And he gave us his home phone for the times when my husband totally blows off my boundaries, like when he picks the bathroom lock when I'm trying to unwind in the bathtub. I can't kick him out of the apt when he does that because he could get mugged out there at night and I can't leave either, so our counselor made a deal with my husband that when I have to call him, that his word will be the last word period. No arguments. Bottomline, if my husband's behavior gets too odd, it could very well be his bipolar issues cropping up, so I always have the option of calling an ambulance and taking him to the ER for intake. I've never done it yet and I hope I never have to. But I will if needs be. Even though it's a very sad thing to think of happening.

Well, anyway, I'll be online for another couple hours (we're 6 hours ahead of Eastern Standard time) and I'll keep checking back to see if there's more posts. Take care, Zak! And thanks!

Just to be clear: I don't hate anyone. I do hate that AS has denied certain things from me and my husband. But, I'm not out to hurt anyone or make anyone feel bad. I'm just trying to be the best me I can be and that means finding my way through territory that's totally unfamiliar to me.

You know, I sometimes notice things about myself that fit the spectrum too and I wonder, "Oh, crap, wouldn't it be a real swizz if we were both aspies?!" I mean, I'm pretty darn sure I'm not, but it does occur to me once in awhile. And when it does, it's very humbling, so maybe it's a good thing that I do.

I am in Scotland right now. Not sure if France as the same time zone as united kingdom? That is great about what your husband said. It seem he is happy you have found this site. Sound like you needed it. Of course, tomorrow is another day. But your doing good. It is good your trying all kind of options to keep your marriage going, and your husband is open to that. You got the foundation to build upon. Hang in there Freyhera.