What was it like when you were a kid?

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I'm a counselor and I have several child clients who seem to fit the profile for Asperger's. I was wondering whether anyone here could help me understand what life is like for these children? Two of the boys that I'm seeing now have severely limited eye contact. With NT children, I would assume that this is a sign of anxiety, but I'm not sure how to interpret the behavior with Asp. kids. Do children with Asperger's have a high degree of social anxiety (to generalize) or is it more an experience of detachment?

I use a play therapy approach with children and I think they are responding well so far. They were withdrawn in the beginning and now they're talking my ears off. ; }

I'm an NT female, late thirties. Social anxiety is an issue for me personally, so I tend to see it in everyone else. Feel free to ask me anything you might be curious about.

Let me say first, welcome to WP.

I've had the same issue with not looking in someone's eyes when talking.

There could me numerous reasons why they don't look you in the eyes ranging from anxiety to information they recieve but don't understand, but luckely for you with autism in general direct questions aren't a real issue. I really should ask them why they have trouble looking you or anyone else in the eyes - just ask nicely, autism or not phrasing and intonation make a world of difference.

I didn't really have any troubles until about age 10, when girls and boys' social roles started getting clearly defined. Then I just got lost and bullied.

Elementary school: I was a very verbal kid, constantly talking, very interested in EVERYTHING- my favorite question was "Why?" I was placed in some gifted classes in order to accommodate that.

When I was between 5-9 I think my biggest issue was wanting to control other kids' play. I could play with other kids no problem, but I wanted to be in charge. I was the one making up the rules and the one choosing what we would play.

I am a girl, BTW.

Kiseki ~ thank you for your reply. I have a female client (age who is having the very same issues that you had as a child...always wanting to be in control of the play. She seems very extroverted, very talkative, even though she often would prefer to play alone.

You're in Japan, yes? From what I know about Japanese culture, discretion and indirect communication is highly valued. Is that right? How does that affect you (if at all)?


Thanks to you also, Wallourdes.

I appreciate the warm welcome.

Thanks Yeah, I was an extroverted child, now introverted but definitely still sociable when I wanna be. As a child I was very happy to play on my own for hours, but I also had brothers and used them for my play when wanted!

I live in Japan, teaching English. I don't like the ways of communication here. I find it VERY difficult to understand the people here as they are not direct at all and seem to only be living to satisfy others' expectations of them, rather than their own. What I like about living here is inherently being an outsider (as opposed to feeling like one everyday in the US where I wasn't supposed to feel that way) and also not understanding all of the mundane dialogues going on around me.

I'd say more about detachment.

As a kid I just didn't recognise other kids or other people as being people like I was, they were just like other objects I had to interact with, not people with their own thoughts and feelings - I was never anxious about being around other people, other people didn't bother me because of how I thought about them. The eye contact was uncomfortable, it was like acknowledging other things were people like me too, it's hard to explain and hard to deal with. Like those children of yours I would have been withdrawn at first - I'd have been mute if you had seen me before the age of 7, but as I was older and started talking I would be quiet but once I was more comfortable I was always VERY chatty.

I appreciate your candor. Yes, it seems like the 8 year old girl that I work with views other children as either a nuisance or props for her own dramatic play. She bites her nails and I asked her one time if she bites her nails when she gets nervous and she replied, "I don't get nervous." It was hard for me to believe, but I guess some people really don't get nervous about what other people think of them. One of the benefits of Aspie wiring.

So acknowledging that other people have their own thoughts and feelings was a struggle. I wonder what it meant to you as a child? If they have thoughts and feelings, then they have a right to be in charge sometimes? To make their own decisions? They might encroach upon your territory? Just musing...

Thanks.

Yes, certainly one of the benefits as aspie wiring.
As a child I didn't play with others at all so this was no longer an issue, it's only since becoming older that I think others don't have a right to be in charge sometimes - the world really does revolve around me in my mind.

I use MMORPGs as an example of what it's like for me as an aspie interacting with other people; Other people are like NPCs, you have to interact with them on a very basic level in order to play the game, you just don't think of them as being other people playing characters in the game just like you, they are instead characters playing inside your game.

I can believe that social anxiety might be a big part of eye contact avoidance even for AS. I have spent most of my life avoiding engagement with other people at least in part due to social anxiety from bad interactions with others when I was a kid. I don't know that my eye contact would be any better if I didn't have these experiences though.

I recall how much I found School unpleasant primary school (age 5 to 11) was a hell I would not inflict of anyone, in general I found school very confusing and received very much hostility from other children constantly finding myself attacked for no reason I could understand.

Back then I would get 2 half days a week at 'The Unit' where for the most part we were encouraged to play and was a great help and relief to me being in a well supervised group of about 10 or so children and away from the hurly burly of my regular school. I did interact with the staff there significantly more than elsewhere (other than home) and did form friendships and play with several other boys there.

This finished when we moved to another area and resulted in a massive step backwards when I went to a new school fortunately after a year of that I was sent to a special school for my secondary education (age 11-17).

This was all a significant time ago.

Welcome to WP!

i was suspected of having autism at only 6 months old, and i was diagnosed as autistic at around 3 years old.
i can not say subjectively how i felt about things before i was about 3.5 because i can not remember.

one of the reasons that i was suspected of having autism at 6 months old is because i did not look at peoples eyes for more than around 1 second before i looked elsewhere.

usually, a baby will find comfort in gazing into it's mothers eyes, and their expression will change in correspondence with the mothers facial expression when she is holding the child and looking at it's face. my sisters and mother tried to hold me and engage me in intimate facial communication expecting me to reciprocate, but my face remained expressionless, and my gaze wandered off to inanimate things in the room that i would look at, and it seemed i was not in their world of affective susceptibility to emotional stimulus.

they became worried that i may be ret*d, and after clinical tests, it was evaluated that i was not ret*d, and i was most likely autistic.

now i will say what i remember as an older child regarding eye contact. (it is almost the same way as i am now)

i remember that i did not see eyes as anything more than objects in a persons head. i also knew that what i saw, i saw through my eyes, and i knew that what i wanted to look at, i pointed my eyes toward, so i understood that it would be the same for other people. i knew that what they wanted to look at, they would point their eyes toward.

so it confused me as to why they would have their eyes pointed in the direction of my eyes. i wondered what they found so interesting about my eyes, because i knew i did not find anything interesting about their eyes. i looked at a persons eyes in the same way i would look at their nose and ears and mouth. once i had seen their eyes, i knew what they looked like, so i did not have to look at them again because i already knew what they looked like.

but for some reason, they had to relook at my eyes over and over again, and it kind of scared me because when i looked at my eyes in the mirror, i did not see them as different to anyone elses eyes, and so i wondered what was going through their mind when they had to stare at my eyes.

i remember being told by my psychiatrist when i was 11, that people look at the eyes of people who they are talking to because they want to "connect" with the person they are talking to, and i did not understand what "connect" meant (in that context), and i was told that "connection" is a sort of emotional involvement between people who are talking.

but i did not know what that really meant either, because i do not really feel anything when i am being told something. i only think about what they say.

it was also said to me that people look "into" other peoples eyes and not "at" them, and i knew i could not see inside anyone's eyes because i did not have x-ray vision.

they finally gave up trying to explain to me why people look at each others eyes, but i know that many people were a bit hurt when they realized i would never understand, and so every time they looked at my eyes, i felt a bit guilty that if i looked at theirs, they would know that all i see is eyeballs, and there is no ray of whatever that they expect to happen between me and them.

it is better to look elsewhere because i do not want to confront them with the bleak reality that all i see is wet physical spheres and nothing else when i look at their eyes.

i am mind blind i guess, and i have heard that "eyes are the window to the soul", but they are nothing more than organs of sight to me.

people would become extremely awkward and feel uncomfortable if i looked at their eyes because they would get no ray of "connection" from me who is just seeing the surface of their eyeballs.

i guess i want to spare them and myself of that confronting deficit in my genetic makeup.

people's eyes do not change color or shape when they are talking, no matter what they are talking about. i can not see the magical phenomena that everyone claims they can see about eyes.

i have no interest in eyes because they are static and it would be like looking at a spot on the wall for an extended period of time when i have no interest in the spot. i would feel visually claustrophobic if i had to look at a rock for a longer time than my curiosity demanded.

anyway, that is me.

The avoidance of eye contact, for me, is a matter of discomfort, as is all physical contact. Personally, it differs. Sometimes, it feels very uncomfortable, odd, and pressuring to look someone in the eye; other times, thoughts run through my head that make me think I am being too forceful, assertive, or otherwise forward. Occasionally, it is a combination of both. When you maintain such a strong, unrelenting gaze into another's eyes for so long, you tend to seem dishonest, superficial, or too forward, which isn't good with strangers, but not looking makes you seem inattentive and uncaring to the person. I generally don't look at people at all. One thing I noticed, and I am not sure how many others experience this, is how sensitive my senses are. Touching feels overly stimulated; I don't being touched or having people invade my space, getting too close. My eyes are incredibly sensitive to all forms of light, artifical or natural; it feels like knives are stabbing them and causes migraines. I have intense aversion to light, which seems far brighter than it is to neurotypical people. Opening the curtains nearly blinds me and is very painful. Something about the cornea allowing more light in. I believe that is called Photophobia.

Another thing you might find useful to know is that many of us are rigid and inflexible in our routines. I know that I don't like change; I like things to be the same. This is particularly difficult, and I am often very troubled by my inability to maintain my order. And it doesn't occur to some of us to engage in the sort of socially appropriate things that neurotypical people do, unless it is part of a routine (in example, asking someone how their day was without being prompted or questioned to do so, saying hello; sometimes we're just absorbed in something). I tended to be this way until it became habitual; I'm very habit-oriented. But I like trying and learning new things. I value knowledge and learning a great deal.

The talkative thing you mentioned could be a social deficit. Some of us talk endlessly about our interests, in verbose and longwinded ways, ignoring or not hearing points or words spoken by others wanting to get in on the conversation, or approaching someone and starting a conversation at an inappropriate point in time. I still do this. And I don't have much awareness or control over the loudness of my voice; sometimes I mumble or speak in shouting tones, and people have to tell me to lower or raise it. Some want to befriend others, just that approaching them is often a failure by typical social norms, which can cause depression or a lack of desire in wanting to socialize with others. It's disheartening to be rejected when you make an effort to engage someone.

I don't know how many others have this, but I tend to enjoy my space. If anyone invades my space, moving things around from my own systematic order, changing things, touching things, it simply drives me mad! Not literally, of course. Irritation.

Welcome!

My daughter has Asperger's - she definitely does not make eye contact with unfamiliar people. She won't even orient herself in the direction of the speaker - she turns her back, looks around - but still hears every word. As she gets used to new people, it gets better. That is definitely not the case for many.

I believe I also have Asperger's and I have always had trouble with eye contact. It is physically difficult for me to look people in the eye - for me it is an extreme feeling of discomfort, anxiety, sometimes embarrassment. It makes me feel vulnerable. Over years - (DECADES!) - I've taught myself to look at noses, or chins, or to force myself to briefly look at eyes by centering on eyelids. I don't beleive I'll ever be comfortable with actually looking into someone's eyes - except my daughter. (I have no explanation for that!) It is an active, constant thought process in a conversation along with an entire script of other social cues to be mindful of. So, with lots of practice, 'socially acceptable' pseudo eye contact can be learned by some. (It would be much easier if society in general could lighten up on the cookie cutter expectations, though! )

My daughter is in a pragmatic speech class through her speech therapist in school to specifically address this issue. That may be a good resource to tap into if you have a colleague in the field.

Welkome to WrongPlanet.

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