New Member - The Irony of how I landed here on Wrong Planet

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I am a 39 year old mom of 4 children. The first two children (both boys) are 23 and 18, and both out on their own now. The second two children are 11 and 8 and of course are still at home with me. Through the last 23 years I've dealt with having a child with ADD, another with OCD, and behavioral problems (the older boys). It was a frustrating time and I blamed myself for their issues because at that time I was a single mom.

Fast forward to now - I have an 11 year old girl who has always been a delight. No issues worth mentioning except maybe early puberty. I think we'll both survive it. My 8 year old boy, it was discovered around the age of 2 years that he was in the very least an Obsessive Compulsive Personality. I had hope it would never bloom into a disorder, but it did. Still, it remained manageable for a long time. He had a great insight into his own thinking and behavior patterns and we were able to cooperatively work through many, many obessions and compulsions together. Things began spiraling out of control after he turned 8 this past January. He had in this past year experienced every possible category mentioned in OCD guides and manuals (hand washing, repeating, counting, checking, cleaning and I'm sure more that I am not even recalling now). He is an amazing child - very abstract, creative, intelligent, sometimes quite focused. We needed help this year when my education and back ground experience were no longer a match for what was happening to him.

He began confessing to me on a daily basis - everything from "I hid a hot dog under the couch when I was four" to "I had a bad thought". The previously visble compulsions were becoming pure obsessions. At our first appointment, the doctor refused to proceed with treatment plan or even diagnosis without consult from Toronto Sick Kids Hospital. She said that what she was seeing was autism, and needed to be able to seperate the two in him. As we wait now for the last month or so, for a telepsychiatry meeting with the folks in Toronto, my son began saying things that scare me to death on a daily basis:

"My brain keeps telling me that I was born to be wild, and I should run through the forest"
"My brain keeps telling me I don't need to wear clothes"
"My brain keeps telling me that I need to run away"
"My brain keeps asking me which parent I would want to die first"
"Every time I hear the word 'girls', my brain shows me a picture of their private area"
"Every time I see something with a line or crack in it, I see a picture in my mind of a girl's private area"
"My brain keeps telling me to stare at one spot outside and never move again"
"My brain keeps telling me I don't belong here"

There do not seem to be any rituals or compulsions related to these repetative thoughts. It feels to me that the scales are tipping full force from OCD to autism. Some of the statements he makes (above) scare me more than others. As far as the private areas of girls is concerned, he has always been a guilt ridden individual, and I expect that his thoughts will be ones that will make him question his morality. This is common with him. However, when I hear things like "I don't belong here", and "I want to stare at a spot and never move again", I grow extrememly concerned that he his moving more inward - out of this world and into his own. I can only explain it as feeling like I am losing a child, even though he is still here, parts of him are missing or stuck inside.

Question: Is it possible to have high functioning Autism or Asperger's suddenly emerge and actually become worse at his age? I just assumed that if he had Asperger's or HFA, that it was something that was always there that went unnoticed. If you are the parent of a child with Asperger's or High Functioning Autism, or a grown child with either - please let me know if any of the above type of statements my son is making are familiar to you. Are they part of OCD or the other suspected diagnosis, or both? I am so afraid that he will become even catatonic based on the statement about staring. When I ask him what he means by "I don't belong here", he says that he doesn't know what it means, just that his brain keeps saying it. Same answer for the other statements when I question him.

Are these classified as delusions, (common to autism) or intrusive thoughts (common to OCD)? I just need to know that this is somewhat normal I guess. I am feeling very helpless, confused, and scared.

I should mention that we have explored the possibility of these statements coming to him through an external source (hearing voices) and this has never been the case. He says they are coming from his own brain and that they are his thoughts, and that they get stuck.

I know this was a long post and I apologise. I really need some feedback here. Thanks for reading, and any response at all will be greatly appreciated.

Hi and welcome to WP. I think it is great that you are seeking out answers for your son, your desire to help him is the greatest thing you can do. If you have not found it yet, there is a parents section for the parents to discuss different topics, maybe someone there would have the experiences you have and be able to give you assurance. Any way, welcome!

Thanks for the welcome. I've been his rock for 8 years, and he only confides in me. I am starting to feel the weight I guess, and know that now I need help. I posted the important portion of my questions in the parents section.
Thanks for that advice,
Mom68

He’s probably telling you his “guilty” thoughts to relieve anxiety; this is a compulsion.

I’ve got OCD and HFA…, and if I told you my complete thoughts you’d probably run screaming into the night whilst simultaneously calling the coppers and throwing stuff at me with your free hand; if I was "compelled" to tell you them, well...you'd hear them. Much like hand washing; same thought process, different overt action....

He must really feel comfortable around you for him to tell you his guilty thoughts.... If you're worried about him "acting" on these thoughts, it’s nothing to be concerned of, it's the complete opposite, i.e., those with "intrusive" thoughts who're disturbed by them (guilt, regret and fear for example) are the least likely people to act on those thoughts.

I'm unable to comment on "delusions" sorry..., to me, they sound like "intrusive thoughts" rather than delusional thinking; I'm uncertain if he'd be so candid with you if it was delusions. Thoughts “stuck” and "sticking" are classical obsessive intrusive thoughts.

E: Delusions aren't a symptom of any autism spectrum disorder; schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder and whatever have delusions as well as hallucinations.

Oh my lord, I can't believe I missed that. You're absolutely right. Confessing is a compulsion in itself. What was I thinking? I fear I may have created this compulsion in fact.

His first appointment with a specialist, and she spent a GREAT deal of time telling him how great it is that he shares his thoughts and feelings with me, and actually said to him "if you don't share your thoughts, they will grow and grow inside of you, so make sure you keep talking to your mom". Add the Asperger's literal thinking into the equation, and he is likely now convinced that thoughts are literally "growing" in his head. Add the fact that he is feeling some sort of an anxiety release from confessing (OCD aspect), and it makes perfect sense. In fact it started as quickly and with as much force as every other compulsion he has experienced, but shortly after that appointment.

I can't thank you enough. I should have been able to see this, but I was busy being more concerned with the "content" as oppossed to just working with him on the compulsion.

Thanks again! You have no idea how relieved I feel suddenly.

Glad I could help.

A small anecdote that I just remembered: though my memory is a little clouded, I believe I went through a short period when I was younger (<13) of where I'd tell certain people things I thought about obsessively that were disturbing to me, and when I revealed this I'd feel a lessening of anxiety.

OCD comes in varying forms and it changes throughout the individual’s life.

Yes, his obsessions and compulsions have always changed very rapidly. I am so thankful that he has as much insight into his OCD as he does at such a young age. It just dawned on me that 2 days ago he actually said to me "My brain keeps telling me that I have to tell you all of my thoughts". I should have known right there.

Thanks again. I hope I didn't cause an issue with the topic, as it is supposed to be an autism forum, but it does get very hard to seperate the two issues at times. In this case, I think they were just slightly intertwined.

There's a big overlap between the two "disorders"; OCD being a common disorder that's co-morbid to autism spectrum disorders. I was diagnosed with OCD first because the compulsions were so overt and "different" from the norm compared to being "shy" and "quiet".

So I'd say it's quite pertinent to this place....

I am certainly expecting a long journey for him. I think that his awareness of what is going on is remarkable, and should carry him a long way through, however I believe that at some age, or point in time in his life, he will rather hide his compulsions from me and others.

Can you speak to any of the medications used for each or both of the disorders as a child (if you tried any) and whether or not they were productive?

Currently there is much debate between myself and my spouse about the use of meds. My spouse does not want to believe there is anything wrong, but is starting to realize it. He is really against the use of any meds. I would also only consider as a last resort, but of course would sooner see the child with some relief than all of this suffering inside.

Even though it was prescribed some time back, he only just took his first dose of ativan last week one evening when he bolted screaming from his room saying "my brain keeps telling me that when you talk to me, I only think I know what you're saying, but that it's really a different language to you than what I am hearing", and "when I answer you back, you're hearing something else, even though it sounds like it all makes sense" and "what if when I see the color red, it looks different than what you see when you look at red?" and "how did God create himself to create the world before he even existed?". Dr. calls him a little existentialist. His mind wanders into all kinds of philosophical ideas and he scares himself silly. Sorry, back to the ativan. he had a backwards reaction to it. Didn't so much get hyper, but did stay awake and busy, in fact went for ice cream. When it wore off, his scary thoughts returned and were amplified enormously. Second dose was required, and he finally went to sleep. He was impossible to wake for school the next day.

Anything you could share in this regard? There is a lot of speculation out there about SSRIs causing thoughts of suicide in children and this is mainly my spouse's concern I think, but the Dr. has made it clear that Zoloft is the drug of choice for OCD.

Yeah…I’m on Zoloft for OCD, which I’m certain is “the” drug of choice for OCD; as the doctor your son saw said. Though, I started it when I was diagnosed at 24 (I’m 25 now), yeah…they all said it was amazing how long I went without any form of treatment. I hid my pain well in my later years, as you feel your son may do as he gets older, especially if he has difficulty expressing his emotions overtly as he gets older due to the autism spectrum disorder.

I started cognitive behavioural therapy at the same time as starting drug therapy, so I’m unsure which one has helped me the most; the professionals said they both complemented each other.... Take that how you will.

I’ve read that there is a measured increase (albeit a slight increase) in suicide amongst youths who’re on SSRI anti-depressants, and they should be given a much lower dose than adults.

If you’re worried of this, and your son is “functioning” ok, I don’t see any reason why he needs to be medicated, i.e., if he is unable to do anything and everything due to his intrusive thoughts; then yes, aggressive therapy is a valid option, but if he can eat, sleep, and care for himself as he normally does, or whatever; I’d just monitor him personally.

Ativan is a mild sedative right? Sometimes, people with an autism spectrum disorder respond quite differently to sedatives...the opposite effect, an increased effect or in my case a diminished effect. What was the timing between the first and second dose of the sedative? Perhaps it took longer to work than what is “normal” and when he took the second dose that sedated him further (but later on) and kept him out to it.

If you'd like anything specific, ask any question, it's of no bother to me. The complete opposite in fact, I need questions to communicate.

O yeah, his "wierd" speech can be a product of an increased anxiety state due to the OCD.

Wow, I really appreciate all of the feedback. I posted the same topic in another forum in here somewhere (parents forum) and just got a response saying "your son doesn't meet the criteria for autism because he's abstract and creative". Frustrating when people stereotype, and forget that there is an entire spectrum of defecits. He doesn't meet the extremes of all of them.

I apologised to the poster for not posting his entire autism features / history as I was focused on the immediate problem that is happening currently. So you have no idea how much I appreciate your feedback here - the other forum seems a little exclusional.

I'm going to work on this need to confess with him, and make sure he realizes that there isn't anything literally growing inside of him as the doctor described it. I will explain again to him that we all have bad thoughts, that they are not abnormal and that he is not obligated to share them, and pergaps like his other compulsions, he will agree to let me know when it starts happening and agree to a diversion of sorts.

Thanks again for everything. I'll be sure to come back this way as the other forum is a little strange......

A lot of people probably don’t have the insight of OCD as I do (because I have it obviously). Those like your son and I are rarer than your standard individual with Asperger’s syndrome, and people tend to forget that there is a whole slew of co-morbid disorders to autism, which can overlap with each other, drown each other out or completely mask the other. Which is what you said.

I'm all over the place too; I cannot speak verbally to anyone other than my mother, but I can supposedly communicate through this written medium with everyone without "too" much difficulty (it is difficult, but I can do it).

Anyway, try listen to what your son says; he may just spurt out the single answer to every question imaginable when he's speaking "weird".

Night

My 13 yr. old has AS and does this as well. He tells me all kinds of thoughts that are in his head and things that he is suddenly remembering from when he was younger. I find some of it disturbing but I just let him talk because it is does indeed take away the anxiety that these thoughts cause him. I realize that I am the only person that he feels safe enough to tell these things to and in a way I feel privileged (an odd sort of way ). He also knows that I can will be able to let him know which thoughts are benign and which thoughts he needs to talk over with his therapist.
I talk to all of my boys about sex and what I know of how pre-teen and teen boys think. They know what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. They also know what they can say around different people when it comes to this sensitive subject.
I just talk, talk, talk, to my AS sons about everything they need to talk about. If you are worried talk to a professional about which comments you need to worry about (or the nature of the comments, of course). As danielsmyname said, the comments are probably just your sons way of dealing with the anxiety. All people have thoughts that could be considered questionable from time to time but don't obsess or become anxious about these issues.

Thank you, it is so nice to hear of other people with similar situations. I feel a million times better right now than when I posted. I really think with his literal way of processing informtion, the Dr. may have him thinking that "things will literally grow in his head" if he doesn't share his thoughts with me. And, it does make sense as a compulsion (need to confess) because we've been sitting here wondering where the other compulsions went recently. They haven't been observable. His OCD has always changed rapidly from one compulsion to another, and there are alaways new ones. Ones I never would have dreamed possible in a million years.

It's great that we have this ability to connect to others. I would have been driving myself insane with worry waiting for that "next appointment".

He responds very well to humor and silliness, and we have been able to combat some compulsions using humor in the past. (defeating the brain hicup by ignoring it, etc.) I think I need to make sure that we all have silly thoughts, and get that fight back into him to defeat this one.

So far I am seeing something common in this thread - these children seem to pick one person to confess or speak to. Interesting. I feel somewhat important and special being the one he confides in as well. Sometimes it does get overwhelming though and I worry about my daughter's perception of the attention he recieves when I am speaking with him in his room (has to be away from everyone else). He has this funny thing he does just with me as well. If I walk into a room, he will make me sit down, or if there is a door, he will make me close it and says 'I feel like you're going to leave all the time".

Funny little guy.

I have to say that I relate to a lot of what you describe about your son.I am 43 and was Dxed with AS last year and I believe obsessive/intrussive thoughts are very "autistic".Some people have physical "tics",some have mental "tics"...they are both intended to releave built up tension.WHen I have intrussive thoughts it does help to vocalize them,so I would not discourage him from sharing these(I am sorry that they are so disturbing to hear but I think it it helpful to him and disagree that you have "created" a compulssion....I think you have just permited him an out let for these thoughts....thats just my opinion based on my own need to express circular thoughts as a way of "purging them".)It is helpful to let him know that a thought is not an action......first we have the thought and then we have the choice of making the thought into an action.....we are built with many "protective" obsticles to turning thoughts into actions.We are in charge(that may offer some comfort as it often feels like a person with OCD feels out of control of their own bodies when they feel they must "act" to relieve the OCD tensions.It's not easy but there is a "zen" sort of method of letting thoughts "pass through" without attaching to them.Perhaps Yoga would be helpful for him?He lives in his head and needs to get back in his body and I found this some what helpful.


It is strange what our brains attach to based on what sparks an interest.I loved "the Jungle book",when I was in 3rd grade.Wanted nothing more then to BE the charactor in that book.Running iwld with the animals,stroking their fur,being free of a society I considered increasingly complicated with social demands I hated and didnt excel at.There was a longing for "simplicity".
I also was very religious and very literal and believed if I was as "pure" as Jesus that I would be allowed to assend to heaven(like Moses)without dying.Sounded like a good plan to me.Problem was,every time I had an "unpure thought",like being angry at someone,I would become obsessed with my own flaws.It seemed the harder I tried to "be good" the more people treated me badly(even my mother said I was a 'holier then thou' and needed to stop it)I felt like Job.being punished for my love of God.I also believed I was literally from another planet(krexafax)and wuld be returned to my planet at some point.My theory was that I was just here to observe people and try to understand them so I could report back to the home planet.I believed in this as a "possibility",into my 20's.(OK,I still havent totaly given it up as an explaination,lol).

I was also very interested in psychology(major in college)and still consider myself an existentialist.I think aspies CAN be abstract,we just dont always have the words to explain things and it sounds like your son does,(good for him).Once he learns not to be afraid of these thoughts,they can become an "interest" an not a compulsion.His feelings that he doesnt belolng here....here means many things to many people.I think it is a common feeling among people with AS.I didnt relate to my peers and didnt know that there even were other people like me,it has helped to know that there are.....perhaps it would help your son as well?The world doesnt need more "clones",help him feel some pride in his individuality and some of these fears of nto "belonging" may abate.In a society that seems to love creating "widgets",it is difficult to embrace your own uniqueness.I think having a physical outlet for these thoughts and feelings(art and poetry helped me),could be a good direction for him?

I wish you both well.An interesting journey ahead but with your strength,a positive out-come.(I should write fortune cookies,lol)

I have a special place in my heart for this one child (I have 4) and I really have to be careful, but the other kids comment that it is good that T2 (his nickname here) has me because he is so vulnerable. They also tend to baby him a little more than they should! My other AS, S, son is 16 and he is very logical and doesn't have the vulnerability that T2 has. I love him but he deals in a different way.
This is a good place to get in touch with others. Never be afraid to reach out.