said goodbye to AFF, hello WP!

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you added that after my response.
being incorrect about the flood wil not keep you out of heaven, however i do believe you are incorrect about your "local flood".
this is something i have seen more recently, people believing that the flood was local, what this is, is the world saying "it can't be" and Christians going along with it.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... s-part-one

Geologic Evidences for the Genesis Flood
Part I: An Overview
by Andrew A. Snelling, Ph.D.
September 18, 2007
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* creation
* evolution
* genesis
* geology
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* the-genesis-flood-book

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This is the beginning of a series of articles explaining the evidences from geology for the Genesis Flood. Each article will discuss one evidence. This first article simply overviews all the evidences discussed in upcoming issues.

Have you ever been tongue-tied when asked to provide geologic evidence that the Genesis Flood really did occur, just as the Bible describes? Then what follows is for you.
canyon

This article provides an overview of six geologic evidences for the Genesis Flood, and in a series of six articles to follow, each geologic evidence will be elaborated upon. Together, they will provide you with ammunition and a teaching tool for you and others.

Why is it that many people, including many Christians, can’t see the geologic evidence for the Genesis Flood? It is usually because they have bought into the evolutionary idea that “the present is the key to the past.” They are convinced that, because today’s geological processes are so slow, the rock strata and the earth’s rock layers took millions of years to form.

Why is it that many people can’t see the geologic evidence for the Genesis Flood? Because many have bought into the evolutionary idea that “the present is the key to the past.”

However, if the Genesis Flood really occurred, what evidence would we look for? We read in Genesis 7 and 8 that “the fountains of the great deep” were broken up and poured out water from inside the earth for 150 days (5 months). Plus it rained torrentially and globally for 40 days and nights (“the floodgates [or windows of heaven] were opened”). No wonder all the high hills and the mountains were covered, meaning the earth was covered by a global ocean (“the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished,” 2 Peter 3:6). All air-breathing life on the land was swept away and perished.

So what evidence would we look for? Wouldn’t we expect to find billions of dead plants and animals buried and fossilized in sand, mud, and lime that were deposited rapidly by water in rock layers all over the earth? Of course! That’s exactly what we find. Indeed, based on the description of the Flood in Genesis 7–8, there are six main geologic evidences that testify to the Genesis Flood.*
Six Evidences for the Genesis Flood
Evidence #1—Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level due to the ocean waters having flooded over the continents.

We find fossils of sea creatures in rock layers that cover all the continents. For example, most of the rock layers in the walls of Grand Canyon (more than a mile above sea level) contain marine fossils. Fossilized shellfish are even found in the Himalayas.
Evidence #2—Rapid burial of plants and animals.

We find extensive fossil “graveyards” and exquisitely preserved fossils. For example, billions of nautiloid fossils are found in a layer within the Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon. This layer was deposited catastrophically by a massive flow of sediment (mostly lime sand). The chalk and coal beds of Europe and the United States, and the fish, ichthyosaurs, insects, and other fossils all around the world, testify of catastrophic destruction and burial.
Evidence #3—Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas.

We find rock layers that can be traced all the way across continents—even between continents—and physical features in those strata indicate they were deposited rapidly. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone and Redwall Limestone of Grand Canyon can be traced across the entire United States, up into Canada, and even across the Atlantic Ocean to England. The chalk beds of England (the white cliffs of Dover) can be traced across Europe into the Middle East and are also found in the Midwest of the United States and in Western Australia. Inclined (sloping) layers within the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon are testimony to 10,000 cubic miles of sand being deposited by huge water currents within days.
Evidence #4—Sediment transported long distances.

We find that the sediments in those widespread, rapidly deposited rock layers had to be eroded from distant sources and carried long distances by fast-moving water. For example, the sand for the Coconino Sandstone of Grand Canyon (Arizona) had to be eroded and transported from the northern portion of what is now the United States and Canada. Furthermore, water current indicators (such as ripple marks) preserved in rock layers show that for “300 million years” water currents were consistently flowing from northeast to southwest across all of North and South America, which, of course, is only possible over weeks during a global flood.
Evidence #5—Rapid or no erosion between strata.

We find evidence of rapid erosion, or even of no erosion, between rock layers. Flat, knife-edge boundaries between rock layers indicate continuous deposition of one layer after another, with no time for erosion. For example, there is no evidence of any “missing” millions of years (of erosion) in the flat boundary between two well-known layers of Grand Canyon—the Coconino Sandstone and the Hermit Formation. Another impressive example of flat boundaries at Grand Canyon is the Redwall Limestone and the strata beneath it.
Evidence #6—Many strata laid down in rapid succession.

Rocks do not normally bend; they break because they are hard and brittle. But in many places we find whole sequences of strata that were bent without fracturing, indicating that all the rock layers were rapidly deposited and folded while still wet and pliable before final hardening. For example, the Tapeats Sandstone in Grand Canyon is folded at a right angle (90°) without evidence of breaking. Yet this folding could only have occurred after the rest of the layers had been deposited, supposedly over “480 million years,” while the Tapeats Sandstone remained wet and pliable.
Conclusion

Jesus Christ our Creator (John 1:1–3; Colossians 1:16–17), who is the Truth and would never tell us a lie, said that during the “days of Noah” (Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26–27) “Noah entered the Ark” and “the Flood came and took them all away” (Matthew 24:38–39). He spoke of these events as real, literal history, describing a global Flood that destroyed all land life not on the Ark.

Therefore, we must believe what Christ told us, rather than the ideas of fallible scientists who weren’t there to see what happened in the earth’s past. Thus we shouldn’t be surprised when the geologic evidence in God’s world (rightly understood by asking the right questions) agrees exactly with God’s Word, affirmed by Jesus Christ.

The next article in this geology series will look in detail at the geologic evidence that the ocean waters flooded over the continents, just as described in Genesis 7–8.

* I want to acknowledge that these geologic evidences have been elaborated on by my colleague Dr. Steve Austin at the Institute for Creation Research in his book Grand Canyon: Monument to Catastrophe, pages 51–52 (Institute for Creation Research, Santee, California, 1994).

have a good read.

Something you posted in the a.f.f. thread was this,



The problem is, which theory? There's several mainstream theories proposed by Creationists as a whole. The most likely candidate to pass for the right one, was rejected for no other reason than theologians' complete ignorance of Science. What's sad, they fail to teach scripture to their adherents, but want to force their ignorance into the schools and attempt to teach science? This is further evidence they understand nothing about science, so keep religion out of the classrooms.

This identical text is also in my copy of, "The Complete Word Study Old Testament" Zodhiates/AMG Publishers
ISBN # 0-89957-665-6

[img][500:800]http://ronie-mooney-encs.us/personal/creation-theories.jpg[/img]

Modern science teaches no such thing. So, take note of the scientifically illiterate, misinformation: "The various attempts to join together the biblical account of creation and evolution are not supportable by the various gap theories because the order of creation is in direct opposition to the views of modern science (e.g., the creation of trees before light.)"
Source: King James Hebrew-Greek KeyWord Study Bible, AMG Publishers, 1991 or,
The creation: secular, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, and Muslim perspectives By Everett Jenkins, and who knows what other publications have distributed this lie.


Source: Foods and feeds - Google Books Result
by Dilip K. Arora, K. G. Mukerji, Elmer H. Marth - 1991 - Science - 621 pages

They are "fruiting fungi" with spores (seed) within itself... and they state,


In the total absence of sunlight... a "fruit" bearing seed (spores) in itself... and is edible by humans.



~ commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prototaxites_Dawson1888.PNG
Hueber 2001, copied from Dawson (1888) "The Geological History of Plants". Appleton, New York, p290.

1. Has fruit with "seed" (spores) inside itself, and
2. Can survive without sunlight (exactly as described in Genesis). Such organisms would have certainly existed during the Vendian/Precambrian.
3. For a long time, scientists presumed or presume a giant "mystery fungi" was a tree, a conifer, to be precise... and some have now described it as one of the "Fruiting Fungi".

i am not sure exactly what you say you believe, also not sure exactly what you are asking. however i will do my best.

my creation beliefs.
God created everything we see in 6 literal days.
man was created as a man, woman as a woman.
God created animals, animals reproduce after their own kind, and thats why we have great danes and pugs, tigers and house cats, ostrich's and penguins and cardinals.
not everything God created thrived, some went extinct, some did not return after the flood.
the flood was global, and killed everything that did not primarily spend its entire life in the oceans.
that God always was, and always will be.
that the father son and holy spirit, are one triune being.
that Jesus was born of a virgin, was killed on a cross WILLINGLY, and rose 3 days later, and is alive today.

I am quite familiar with Answers in Genesis, and had personal correspondence with them in the past.

They are one of the organizations which are notorious for publishing outright, blatant scientific mis-information.

I will provide an example.

This image was provided by Answers in Genesis on their website, in hope to dispute cetacean evolution.
Notice the "yellow" coloration of the so-called "only bones" they claimed were found to Ambulocetus Natans, the earliest of walking whales.


Image based on the image located on Answers in Genesis, as is on Dec. 02, 2004 compared to image based on a photo image (below) featured in a November 2001 copy of National Geographic, "The Evolution of Whales".
Answers in Genesis expains their diagram:
The author explains the three images:
1) Top: Ambulocetus skeleton, as drawn in Miller’s book
2) Middle: Ambulocetus reconstruction, as drawn in Miller‘s book
3) Bottom: Actual bones found (Yellow). Note missing pelvic girdle.

Answers in Genesis, Dr. Jonathan Sarfati:
On p. 265, Miller claimed, ‘the animal could move easily both on land and in water’, and contained a drawing of a complete skeleton and a reconstructed animal. But this is misleading, bordering on deceitful, and indicative of Miller’s unreliability, because there was no indication of the fact that far fewer bones were actually found than appear in his diagram. Crucially, the all-important pelvic girdle was not found (see diagram, right). Without this, it’s presumptuous for Miller to make that proclamation.

Note missing pelvic girdle??

Far fewer bones were found??

What "missing" pelvic girdle?

Mind you, this was Jonathan Sarfati in 2002, six years after the pelvic girdle was fully recovered... SIX YEARS, and Sarfati knew nothing of it??

See the picture of its skeleton (below). Looks like that creature was found fully intact, and Answers in Genesis was busy doing carwheels LYING to its readers about the fossil, because here is that creature as it were, fully intact, in 1996 :



How long was the information available to scientists on the fossilized pelvis bones of Ambulocetus?

I was in question why Dr. Jonathan Sarfati does not have current information available on the Answers in Genesis website. I contacted Professor Hans Thewissen to verify exactly when the pelvis bones were discovered and knowledge about them dispersed to scientific circles? Should not have Jonathan Sarfati known about these pelvis bones earlier than the year 2004? If he has had knowledge, then I ask why has he neglected to update his web page?


Be a wise consumer of information. Just because a multi-million dollar religious organization lies in the name of God, does not make their information scientifically-accurate.

Last edited by AspieForty on 18 Apr 2010, 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

without reverting to the AIG site, i do notice that this is "based on what was found" and not what was actually found. so what DID they actually find?

so i think what your trying to say is you believe SOME of the bible?

Pics "Based on" to avoid copyright infringement lawsuits.

But what you see, is what they recovered between 1994-1996, and Jonathan Sarfati *ignored* and *lied* in 2002/2004 on the Answers in Genesis website. All the time he knew Dr. Thewissen's team had recovered the entire skeleton, but Sarfati chose to refer to outdated information... he chose to lie.

A Rather Complete “Incomplete” Ambulocetus Whale Fossil Oct 5, 2001 ...
Falsehood: Ambulocetus has no pelvis. ... Bones of the holotype specimen of Ambulocetus natans ... The bones found in 1996 include much of the spine and the pelvis.2 The web site for an exhibit of a reconstructed ...
members.cox.net/ardipithecus/evol/lies/lie030.html

Answers in Genesis BUSTED!
Ambulocetus and A Whale of a Tale As ... Aug 28, 2007 ... The bones found in 1996 include much of the spine and the pelvis. ... science answers genesis ambulocetus transitional fossil whale ...
aigbusted.blogspot.com/.../ambulocetus-and-whale-of-tale-as-told.html

Answers in Genesis is giving "Faith" a really bad rep.
The Atheists seize on this information to discredit Christianity.

But Answers in Genesis, do not speak for me.

Simply go to Google, and do a search for "ambulocetus natans pelvis 1996"


A Pic of Ambulocetus natans, and Dr. Thewissen.

you still have not said what you believe.
and i found this, apparently the same place you got your photos from?

not exactly why we are veering off on this science tangent.

my question is exactly this:
do you believe the bible, cover to cover?

Last edited by scoobert on 18 Apr 2010, 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I believe the entire Bible exists, including the Apocrypha, and forgeries like the book of Enoch, a book filled with false idolatry that some certain false teachers attempted to pawn as an "inspired text" along with a long line of false teachers who mangle and twist scriptures to suit their peculiar agenda... and lie to the sheep who follow organized religions as they did in the day of the Prophets and Jesus...

...and for rebuking them, Jesus was murdered by the same religious establishment, that wrote the Bible.

The Bible serves as a valid historical document.

wow thats kind of a messed up view.
so you believe Jesus was unwillingly killed?

I believe in using the brain the good Lord gave me, for as Jesus said, when two blind men lead each other, they both fall in a ditch.

As for Answers in Genesis, Science has provided them with such a butt-whoppin' that they have slowly wiggled and wormed their way away from their earlier, rigid traditional claims that no such bones exist... slowly transforming their views,

[img][650:600]http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/mpm/HMPBK02.JPG[/img]
Humpback Whale
Vertebrate Zoology Section
Milwaukee Public Museum

Science does not change according to Creation theories. The Creation theories must be amended to suit the facts of science.



"....But now you assert that the existence of "femurs" is "uncertain." ...."
See Struthers' 1881 Dissection of a Greenland Right Whale's Pelvis and Femur, below, which includes a photograph of the original dissection which is housed in museum.


Dolphin turns up in Japan with hind (limb remnant) flippers





Struthers' 1881 Dissection of a Greenland Right Whale's Pelvis and Femur

so you are asserting several things here.

1. science never lies (see global warming)
2. Bible is full of lies and half truths

if the Bible has one lie, it is worthless and should be discarded.
i would say based on my definition of what a Christian is you would not fit the definition.
you seem to be asserting that Jesus was a victim of his own circumstances.

Read what I said again, "Jesus was murdered by the same religious establishment, that wrote the Bible..."

The same false priests who authored books, like Enoch.

Israel and Judah were both crushed for their idolatry, and their refusal to obey the commandments of God (the entire teachings of Jesus revolved around the Commandments of God, not the law of Moses which had became revised and watered down and could not save a soul), the Priesthood loved idolatry, polygamy and every custom contrary to the law of God. For teaching the truth, the religious establishment murdered Jesus.

Do you deny that it was the Priests (the religious establishment) who agitated for the crucifixion of Jesus??

The Straight Dope: Who killed Jesus?
The high priest Caiaphas ordered Jesus' arrest. Witnesses accused Jesus of having threatened to destroy the Temple, but their testimony did not agree, ...
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... lled-jesus

Jesus and archaeology - Google Books Result
James H. Charlesworth - 2006 - Religion - 740 pages
Likewise, while Mark says simply that Jesus was led to the high priest (Mk 14:53), the Matthean parallel identifies this high priest as "Caiaphas" 1. ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=080284880X...

If Jesus were to arrive on the scene today, there are many millionaire televangelists who would be the first to call for the execution of Jesus, i.e., Jimmy Swaggart (who loves adultery) Ted Haggard (who loves adultery), Kent Hovind (who loves tax evasion, "Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's") Jim Bakker (who loves adultery) and the many sordid crimes / scandals the religious establishment are guilty of past, present, future. Including the scandals of Pedophile priests in the Catholic Church.

These men murdered Jesus!

Jesus condemned their adultery... and they did not like him. The top leadership in organized religion, the religious establishment, are some of the biggest adulterers and they refuse to teach the truth to their followers. Just some of the similarities between the religious establishment in Jesus' day, and the present day.

I will leave you to struggle with those questions for yourself, and it may take you years of further study to satisfy your curiosity. If you seek truth. It is not my responsibility to teach, it is between you, and your intermediator, Jesus Christ.

Science does not lie. But some with an agenda will distort, twist and mangle scientific data for their own political or religious agenda. (As I have amply demonstrated in regard to Answers in Genesis which incidentally is a multi-million dollar religion(TM) manufacturer.

Scientists create theories based on evidence. Theories, which are sometimes wrong,

String theory: Is it science's ultimate dead end? | Science | The ... Oct 8, 2006 ... For decades, physicists have been sure they could explain the universe in a handful of complex equations: now many are starting to fear they ...
- guardian.co.uk/science/2006/.../research.highereducation

JYI.org :: The Great Debate: String Theory by C Yvette - Related articles
String theory has seen better days. Once hailed as the most promising theory ... as a potential dead end. Is string theory really hanging on by a thread? ...
- jyi.org › Features

If only theologians were half as humble to confess their errors and false teachings. True scientists are on the forefront of exposing scientific falsehoods. But religion meanwhile, NEVER admits its falsehoods. They have a patent answer for all things, claim to hold "all truths", while a true scientist admits, "I don't know." Science changes with evidence, Religion holds on perpetually to centuries-old outdated ideas... even to the extreme of fighting and denying science.

Global Warming was a theory proposed by some, based on scientific facts.
However, there is no evidence that Global Warming itself, is a "fact".
Don't be confused by the controversy.

Last edited by AspieForty on 18 Apr 2010, 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OMG...

I certainly thought this thread would be moved to PPR by now,

But now It feels like it belongs in the Love and Dating Forum.

Due to the fact I feel a marriage proposal is in order

- or out of order - nevertheless

I'm in love

luke 23:34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.


what is enouch that you speak of, i do not know every false teaching there is.