Angry NT Wife Seeking Community

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No, he's completely clueless. Innocence is his trademark. And yes, his reasoning does tend to be way out there. And his sense of reality can be rather skewed. But I blamed the bipolar for that. I mean, there was a time when they were actually considering permanently institutionalizing him because he was so schizoid and psychotic. His meds, Zyprexa, saved him from that horrible doom. They really work for him. And the doc just put him back on Lithium because his empathy was rock bottom and she thought he was bordering on sociopathy. That stemmed from another one of his "jokes":

HIM:"Where's my cell phone?"
ME:"I don't know."
HIM:"Where IS my cell phone?"
(we both see that we're going to start teasing each other; we're kind of laughing and smiling)
ME:"I didn't know it was my turn to babysit it! I don't know!"
HIM:"You better tell me where my cell phone is or I'm gonna' getcha!" (he's smiling big now, like the Cheshire cat. I'm thinking he means he's gonna grab me and tickle me or something; I laugh and play along)
ME:"Oh yeah? Whaddya' gonna do to me?"
HIM:"I'm gonna' get a knife and carve a pentacle in your face and burn holes in your cheeks with a cigarette!" (still smiling)
EEEEERRRT!! !! END OF FUN TIME!! ! Time to call the psychiatrist.

So, I don't know how much of his weirdness is AS and how much is BPD. And I don't think his psychiatrist knows squat about AS, so she's always going to see things from the bipolar perspective. Do you think that "joke" was due to his AS?



Wow, what a great post. As I was reading it I kept thinking, "This is the kind of post I'd write if I wasn't so freaked out and scared of what the future holds with my AS husband!" It's amazing, I have found some things that I can mirror back to him without being mean or hurtful and yes, he tends to get it pretty fast. He is a willing participant in this mutual discovery of what the heck AS is and what we can do together to get through each day without having our world implode in on us. So, he's game whenever I start a sentence like, "Imagine a scenario where..." and we try to do role reversals. It's pretty cool. I guess I don't think enough about the good stuff and some of the funny things that arise because of the AS. Not funny, as in, making fun of him. Funny where he laughs too and we end up with a good memory instead of an ugly moment we'd rather forget.

We are working on getting more support. We did find an AS support group that meets here in Paris once a month. We went to a meeting and there were like hundreds of people there and they were all frantic for info. It was pretty heartbreaking to see. As we sat there listening to people asking the speaker some really basic questions (like, "My son had a fever. Did that cause the Aspergers?" oh, my) my husband was translating the French for me and he started to cry. It was like their words coming out of his own mouth made him have an immense amount of empathy for them. Also, later he told me as we walked away that he realized just how much he and I have learned together about AS on our own and credited the fact that I'm an American (a go getter) and an anglophone (most of the literature about AS is printed in English before it ever gets published in any other language) with having given him a step up where his fellow French aspies seemed to still be far behind in understanding. We do plan to attend his support group again in the near future.

For me, there's nothing. Just expat wives support groups and I'm certainly NOT going to bring up AS and bipolar there! For people who speak English and know about AS, the internet is it for me. But I'm considering starting my own AS Spouses support group here in Paris for anglophones. Where there's a need, right? Well, we'll see....

I did misunderstand where you were saying the problem started. You got together, you noticed something wasn't right with him, and you found out it was A.S. Diagnosis was not the start, understood and my apologies.



Perhaps I see this differently than you... I may be wrong, but you see this story as a sort of "fated to be together" tale, yes? I take this story to mean that you met somebody as a child, had almost negligible contact with him for 30 years, then decided to marry him? I am not trying to be condescending, and I fear I am coming off that way. I don't believe in fate or anything metaphysical or supernatural, so this is just how I interpret your story. This is why I felt you set yourself up for disappointment, as you phrased. However, giving your words further thought, I feel that this past history and my possible misinterpretation of it are irrelevant to your problem and my opinion of it.




I am not using anything as a platform. I am simply stating my opinion of your situation and offering my perspective as somebody in a similar situation, albeit from the opposite side of it.



That sounds terrible. Yet it still has nothing to do with his actual job. That is not your fault though. But don't you think it IS asking too much for him to deal with all of that while at work, then come home every day and have to keep up the act? That is what it is, you know, and that is what it will always be. We will always be outsiders, alien... You will never truly make him fit into an NT world. The most you can do is help him to put on a good act. And that takes a lot of effort for us, and that is on top of actually doing his real job.



No, I am blaming you (NT's) for perpetuating the ones that make no logical sense (i.e. "it is rude to wear a hat in a building"). Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't make it a good idea.



THAT is what you people get from something like a man eating with his mouth open??????? None of that makes any logical sense... The only thing you can infer from a person eating with his mouth open is that he is eating with his mouth open. Social graces and law are two COMPLETELY different things. You can't logically infer one from the other. That is how you see us... I don't think I can help you and that paragraph has upped my social anxiety a few levels.

How cool! We're like neighbors! Paris is GMT+1, so it's going on midnight here. I'll be signing off soon, I just didn't want to miss any posts and since everyone's been so kind to take an interest and give me a leg-up here, I can't very well just fade away right when I'm getting answers and hope... FINALLY!

So, how coincidental is this: I'm probably headed for the UK tomorrow. It's the plans I'd made before coming on here and finding all this great support. I need to go somewhere and have a quick break from the hubby and France and I need to go somewhere where they speak English!! ! So, if I don't come on for about a week, you'll know where I am! If there's a way to check the internet while I'm away, I'll drop by here. Ok?

Thank you for the apology.



And when was the last time you saw a man take off his baseball cap in Walmart? Never. So, us NT's have supported relaxing some of the outdated rituals. Thing is, I bet even you would want to take your hat off if the national anthem was played or you attended a funeral. There is something respectful about it... I think it shows a certain vulnerability. Maybe it stems from the time when knights would take off their helmets to signal they were not going to fight. My NT sensibilities feels it's something like that -- a peacemaking gesture.



"You people"? Wow. If I, a disdained NT, used that phrase to refer to people with Aspergers in one of my posts, I think you'd be pretty offended right about now. Look, I get it that you think manners are silly, but really, if it weren't for good manners, I'd be calling you some pretty nasty names right now... so, maybe manners have a place in society, huh?

Say, why don't you and I agree to follow Thumper's mother's advice: "If you can't say nothin' nice, don't say nothin' at all."

I don't have anyone to 'guide me'. I read WP and benefit from reading the posts and that is the extent of it. I wouldn't know where to look to find someone that gives me advice about how to form relationships with NT, work, school and so forth. Where do you get this stuff, anyway?

If I didn't have WP, I wouldn't even have that. I am confused, now. I don't rely on empathy, I have asked for it, begged for it, just sat right down in the middle of the grocery store and cried for it in all the years I went undiagnosed, and at best I got " we all have problems relating to others" (and this little part of it I heard for 20 years courtesy of AA) you are no different from the rest of us.

so I don't know what you are referring to, here. I live in the States. Don't laugh, please.

drowbot0181:
Ok, I had to go calm down after replying to your last post. But I can't just leave these points unanswered. I hope you take my words in the spirit they're intended... as communication.

No, to be precise, the only thing you and possibly other AS can infer from a person eating with his mouth open is that he is eating with his mouth open. Obviously, unless I'm lying to you, there are lots of people -- that would be like most of the rest of the world -- who see breaking with social norms as indicative of a bit more than just breaking with social norms. Insisting it isn't so to me just doesn't do any good. LISTENING to someone other than yourself may. Even if I am a dreaded NT.



Not so. Law grew out of a need for standardized social graces. There was a time when a man could kill your son and then you could just go slaughter his whole family without any reprecussions. Somewhere along the line, when tempers flaired, someone said, "Hey, settle down and act like nice people. You're scaring the women. And next thing you know we'll be at war again." So, little by little 'manners' became 'laws', or a code of conduct we all agree to adhere to for the betterment of the whole community.



Wow, no... I don't think you understood. In a broad general sense, eating with your mouth open in public is just seen as immature or rude. But somewhere in our collective caveman unconscious we have that other criteria floating around. Think of a group of people who make you feel uncomfortable on the whole. For some people, it could be hippies for example. I used to be a hippie, so I can talk about this and too bad if I offend anyone. In the 60's and 70's, hippies were shunned. Why? Because we dressed funny and wore long hair and danced barefoot in the streets and gave away flowers to people. That was seen as socially "off" which was our full intention. We MEANT to peacefully break with social norms in order to make a statement about how stupid we thought social norms were. Thing is, we didn't realize that what we were doing was counter-productive. We were just alienating people by upsetting the delivery of social cues (manners), and definitely not getting them to see how cool life could be if we all just relaxed a little. We learned that you can't change people's minds about social norms by being socially un-normal, we had to 'fit in', stop scaring the little old ladies, and then make a stink. So eventually, some of us cut our hair, took showers, bought some suits and ties, went to college, got jobs in law, politics or journalism and THEN really got to work on making some changes.



I can't take the blame for everything that bothers you. And even tho my heart goes out to you for your social anxiety -- not fun -- all I hear is how NTs are no good control freaks who make you feel bad. That sucks. For you though, not me. I wish you well. Peace.

One concern; you seem imply the belief that if only your husband would see your side of things, then he would change. I'm not sure how to describe the state of being told there is something there only to look and see nothing - it is disorienting for me as an individual when the expectation is that I innately know what something means, or what others expect from me. There are many things that are taken for granted; small motions, semantic differences, exchanged looks... without specific experience and information, they are meaningless. There is the sense of walking in the door of a massive labyrinth, the entrance closing behind you, then being immediately asked where the exit to the maze is - without taking another step. Please understand, I am not discounting the responsibility each person has to find their place - whatever that may be - but that the very challenges faced restrict the avenues of solution that come innately. While some people, some times, do 'cop out' due to their condition, it isn't fair to label his every action as thus.

As for assistance... I had myself. Being high-functioning, my function was often 'eccentric', 'odd', or 'peculiar' but not to a point where the problem was identifiable. It wasn't until adulthood when the structures started to dramatically change that I began to experience extreme challenges for me. When I was young and realized that I was different, I started watching people and studying them. I move my arms now when I walk, but my gait is still irregular; my eye contact has a tendency to be too intense; spending time in theatre and choral studies helped my voice become less of a low rumble into something that I can use relatively effectively... yet there are still times I mumble or get extremely loud. But these were because my 'quirks' led me down that path, and I have other deficits as a result. C'est la vie - we learn, we adapt, we move on whether we want to or not because time passes. But I have to second SinsBoldly on her experience, that in my experience there was no advocate, no 'knowing person' who even knew what my troubles were, much less how to navigate them.


M.

No worries, I would never laugh at someone's obvious pain. I'm really sorry you've been alone. My husband has always had a wonderful support system, so he's actually pretty grateful for all the times his friends and family have searched the city for him when he's turned up missing, and then after they'd find him, they'd rush him to help. He was also taken in by a Catholic charity and was on his way to becoming a monk when we reunited, so the monks took good care of him too. And now, he's got me and his doctors/counselors to turn to and ask questions about what the NT world around him means. It never even occurred to me that some of you would be alone. I'm just glad you at least found this place.

Feyhera,

First of all, Welcome to WrongPlanet.

There's no forum for you to discuss the things you really want to, so you're doing the next best thing by posting here. I think that there should be a forum to do so, since you're not the only person to have asked. I'll raise it and see if we can get something done.

I'm writing this as I read through your posts (from the beginning), so I beg your forgiveness if I touch on subjects which have already been covered.

(EDIT: This was getting too long, so it's only a response to pages 1 and 2. I'll post more later if you're still interested enough to want to read more).

I understand your situation since I'm sure that only a few years back, I was probably the "bad aspie" in my own relationship. Things changed there for the better. My wife and I are much more settled. Sure, aspie things still rear their ugly head at times but they're never as bad and we recognise them for what they are.

One of the first things you need to be aware of is that Aspergers is a set of characteristics - not rules. Every aspie is different based on a lot of other factors, including environment. Aspies, like everyone else, can change.

Aspergers is NOT a license to do whatever you please or to get your own way 100% of the time.

An aspie who doesn't want to work on his/her relationship is no better than an NT who doesn't want to work on it. Like houses, all relationships need constant maintenance and unless you do the upkeep, you might as well not have one.

Most importantly, some of the "limitations" of aspergers can be worked around but only if you try. Aspies who "run away" from their problems (eg: by avoiding social contact altogether) only make matters worse for themselves and their families. It's a struggle, but it must be fought.


Empathy
If you look around WrongPlanet, you'll find quite a bit of discussion on empathy. Often, we're trying to figure out what it means. Personally, I still don't know. I feel like I give a lot of empathy, sympathy and support and yet on the Empathy Quotient Test, I rate a 12.

I really don't know what I'm doing wrong - but I'm trying.


You asked how other aspies could relate to you if your husband can't. I think that it's because some of us have been in long relationships and have seen this in our partners. Some of us have survived too.

BTW: Your description of Empathy/Pity and the little bird is a real eye opener. Thanks for that, it clarifies a lot for me.

Have you talked to your husband like that? Have you told him what you'd like him to do for you? Told him how he could show empathy?

For me, one of the biggest helps was reading John Gray's book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". The book is mainly about the differences between men and women - men being problem solvers while women are empaths but it might as well have been about aspies and NTs who are almost extreme opposites.

Empathy for Aspies
Your comment; "if you're anything like my husband, don't you rely on empathy from others in order to make it in the NT world?", is an interesting one too. I'm not sure about other aspies but I rarely form relationships with NTs at work. I'm just nice and "myself" and I take everything as a joke. I don't assume that anything is negative (hence I do get taken advantage of quite a bit) but I'm generally liked. I just don't have the same depth of relationships at work that others have.

If anything, I find the whole "being fussed over" business to be nauseating. It was my birthday yesterday and all of the fuss seriously disturbed me. I'd have been just as happy if nobody noticed.

but...

Then you say "if it's something you partake of, isn't it only fair that aspies make some sort of effort to find it in their hearts to care about lost birds to the point of taking some responsibility for the other living beings around them?".

It's a fair point but an NT point. I care really deeply about my family and friends yet I won't run out and hug them. It's not that I don't want to so much that it makes me uncomfortable. If they indicate that they want a hug, I'll give them one. If they ask for help, I'll drop everything to be there.

My main issues are;

1. If often need to be told that they need me to do something because I don't always recognise the need in their body language or expression.

2. Sometimes my reactions are wrong. I don't always know what people want, so I guess - and sometimes I get it wrong. Sometimes when my wife is shouting (she doesn't do it much now but she used to), I'd try to give her a hug - it was often the wrong thing to do. Sometimes she'd shout - "why didn't you give me a hug?" - I'm confused.

Nowadays, she knows that simply spreading her arms gives me an idea of what I should do.


Aspies don't lack empathy. We lack the knowledge of when and how to show it - and often we lack the ability to "express it" in our features.

We can learn. Teach us. Teach your husband.

You know, the quirky things -- like gait and posture and strange gestures -- are lovable identifiers that I smile about when I see him moving around our home or walking toward me in the street. He's told me that he finds speaking English as a relief because in his own language he's perceived as odd. I've been here long enough now to hear it for myself when he speaks French in front of me. I've never told him I hear it. I never will. He feels good talking to me, why ruin it for him. I love the way he holds his pinkie up when he's doing delicate things. And he's pretty darn athletic for an aspie and was a motocross champion in two countries as well as a national French wind surfing champion. Yet, if you saw him on the street, you'd never guess. He doesn't fit the part to look at him. But I know, and it's titillating to be the only one who does. When I look at him, he's THE MOST handsome man in the world. And the smartest. And the kindest. And the humblest. And the most generous. And so much of that comes from AS, because he's stayed uncomplicated somehow. And youthful. He's got that classic baby face.

And he has taken cues from NTs throughout his life. Some pretty bad things happened to him when he was younger and he hit bottom HARD. When he recovered, he came to some pretty amazing conclusions for how he'd live the rest of his life. First thing he decided was he was going to stop denying he had some pretty heavy mental health issues. The next important decision was that he'd trust his doctors and family. After that, he chose to try medication and not freak out if he had to go without mania and lose a bit of his sex drive. It also makes him sleep like 12 hours a night. Another loss he had to accept. Finally, he decided to give his life over to That Which Loves Us and trust that there was something good for him in this life. And he prays. He prays a lot and deeply. His monk training has given him a lot of inner peace. So, this man has done so much already, that he's really an over-achiever in some ways. I mean, as far as what he's accomplished with overcoming his Bipolar disorder, I can really feel hopeful that he'll at least stop being beligerent about some of his AS issues someday. But I know that his neurology is who he is. He's wired in such a way that in order for me to have the good stuff, I've got to be able to cope with the bad stuff too.

I hope I can someday, and I know he'll support me in my journey. That means everything!

don't NTs do things because it makes them feel good? I mean, the women at work talk about 'warm fuzzies' and how they get them because they made a batch of brownies and brought them to work, or took a casserole to a family whose mom was in the hospital. They do selfless acts because it was just the right thing to do and it doesn't lose it's luster because it gives them joy (i.e. warm fuzzies)

when I bake the brownies, or take food to those in need, I don't get any 'warm fuzzies' I just fulfill what need logically prompts my actions. My heart goes out to the baby bird, my logic tells me I will lose my job if I don't go to work and instead of eye dropping sustanance into the baby bird every two hours I would find a wildlife sanctuary, if able, of course. Just because I can not myself take care of the baby bird I would not walk on by unless I was convinced I could not find someone to act in my stead. Is that empathy?

It sounds like you have really done a lot to work on your relationship. If you can do so calmly, I would sit down with him and explain what you've been doing, and that you feel like everything is falling apart. Let him know you just can't do it all yourself, and that you need his help.

Right now it seems like everyone is telling him that it's up to you to carry 100% of the burden. It's obvious that you care for him, and for that I have nothing but praise. There are many women out there who make no efforts, no sacrifices, expecting an Aspie husband to do everything, carry 100% of the relationship. The truth is that they can't, nobody can. I can't, your husband can't, you can't. We're not gods.

He needs to realize that you're human, and that like him, there are times you can't do everything by yourself. Having Asperger's Syndrome does not exempt him from having to make efforts and sacrifices. It does not exempt him from needing to try and meet you halfway. He deserves help, to have someone there to look after him. He just needs to realize that you deserve the same things.

(Also, with the hugs, I know a compromise for that. In my last relationship I would often wrap my arms around my girlfriend as she cooked, and helped out in the kitchen as I could. For you, I imagine you could do the same. If you do some of the chores together, it gives a lot of time to be physically close, and I imagine the combination of a helping hand and affection might make things significantly easier.)


As an aside: This is not in any way to justify Drowbot's post, but his reactions are a result of his wife's treatment. Simply put, she drags him to family functions but refuses to let him tag along at bars. She's cheated several times, and treats him horribly. His reactions are going to be colored by that. Just remember that you're nothing like his wife, so although his responses might be rude, inappropriate, uncalled for, it's nothing you should take personally. It's best to ignore what he says.

Last edited by CerebralDreamer on 16 Jul 2009, 12:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

Fine, let me reword my previous statement... The only thing you can justly infer from a person eating with their mouth open WITHOUT making completely baseless assumptions that border on hysteria is that that person eats with their mouth open. I find it shocking that you can make the leap from that mundane action (which doesn't affect you at all unless you are staring down the person's gullet) to thinking that person might stab you in the back when you turn around. Do you make these horrible leaps of logic when it come to your husband?



Actually that's not what happened at all... Humans first invented rules to justify being cruel to one another. It ties into the early creation of religion... Fascinating subjects, but not something to delve deeply into right now. I just have to disagree with you completely. Social graces and rule of law are NOT the same thing. Rule of law is about basic freedoms that we have all agreed on not being violated. Social graces are about meeting the expectations of a particular person or group of persons. These are actually quite variable, as you yourself can attest to, being in a foreign country where a three course lunch is required at work.



We're not cavemen anymore. In fact, the only thing standing between us animals is our capacity to deny our base instincts.



I don't get your point... :/ I disagree with you about hippies, so that may be why. I think the hippie movement was a necessary counter to the extremes of McCarthyism prior to/during that period.



Not blaming you... That last paragraph of yours was just appalling and I sincerely hope that other NT's don't think that way, but my experience says otherwise. And I never stated that I think NT's are no good control freaks... you just did. I keep saying in every way that I can think of that I feel your problem stems from making baseless, superficial assumptions about people and that I think you maybe rushed into a marriage with somebody you knew thirty years ago (not knew FOR thirty years).

I commend you for your sacrifices. I know much of sacrifice. I gave everything I had to my relationship and got little back. I just feel that you are giving too much of yourself and expecting too much in return. You said yourself he has made progress. But there are limits. There are limits to how far he can go and how fast he can get there.

Perhaps if you thought of Aspie's as a separate culture...even a separate species (there is a reason this site has the name that it has...) rather than a disease to be dealt with or cured, you would get further. You seem to color everything with your assumptions, including my posts. Would you think of me as you do the hypothetical person in your mouth-open scenario? I am not a violent person. I have never been in a fight.

As a final note, it would do you some good to REALLY think about that joke of your husband's... It speaks VOLUMES if you are only willing to listen. And, though it may seem odd to suggest, you should watch the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode entitled "In Theory".

I don't think I will post here again, which should please you, I think. Your posts are very...emotional, and your counterpoints lack any logic that I can see and this makes it very difficult and exhausting to try and understand them, but I try. You reasoning is emotional, not logical, and I am not sure I am capable of bridging that gap. You meant it as an insult, I think, but it is true and I do not take it as an insult: I am cold.

This reply was incredibly encouraging and positive... I find that writing myself notes and letters reminding myself of the good things helps to abate the weight of frustration that comes from being someone on the spectrum - or being in a relationship, or any of a million things that one experiences in life. The physical sense of holding the letter in front of me, knowing that I wrote it, seeing the handwriting, reliving the memory, is one of the most comforting things I've experienced.

Side note: You mention that he has become comfortable with his understanding of bipolar and how it affects him, the sacrifices he has made and chosen to pursue to overcome the obstacles he faced. Given the difficulties that many on the spectrum experience regarding change, would it be worth considering that learning his perception and understanding of how he works and the awareness of being seen as different, perhaps he is going through a phase of denial and malfunctioning systems that he has learned to depend on for some thirty years? Just a thought. Thank you for sharing and opening an incredible conversation.


M.

I stayed up til 4 am last night and started answering this post but just couldn't finish and went to bed. But, straight away, after getting up this morning, I came back to it and finished...

Thank you. Nice to be here.



I'd appreciate that. Thanks.



Wow, I've had the distinct feeling all thru my 3 years of marriage that I, the NT, was the bad guy. And yet, in my heart, I know that neither of us is the bad guy. We're just dealing with something way over our heads at the moment. I may not have a ton of patience left and he may not have a clue, but we've got love...



Those are some hope inspiring words! Have you written about the process on WP yet? If not, I'd love to hear about it in detail. Like what kind of counseling worked best, what did you find to be the hardest things to work out, did your wife have to become your 'emotional seeing eye dog', etc.?



Could you explain this in more detail. I'm not sure I follow.



You're only the second person I've heard say that! I'd really like to hear what changes an aspie can be expected to make, just so I can start getting a more reasonable picture of what lies before me/us.



Amen! Ok, that one gets taped to the fridge door!



So there are lazy aspies and quitter aspies and entitled aspies? It's not always explainable as just part of the hard wiring of an aspie? Because I am fed up with the honoring that 'license'. I do get the feeling it's being somewhat abused around here by a certain aspie I happen to know.



That's something my husband does do -- after being at the monastery for 6 years, he now makes himself stay in the world. He calls it his "social work" and figures isolation when you have a chance at a good life to be "scandalous" (his word).



I know that all people, of all walks of life, could relate at some level or another, with what I'm facing and I know that that's valuable, but, there is a significant void in my life when it comes to having other spouses of aspies to talk to and just vent with without having to 'stay on'. Because, it's downright work, right now anyway, for me to communicate effectively with aspies. I have to try to stay completely PC and put my own feelings aside and make their way of seeing things the priority. Just look back at my interaction with drowbot0181 on this thread and you might see what I mean. And even if the aspie I'm having an exchange with is totally there for me -- like you and most others who responded to this thread have been -- it doesn't change my instinct to 'take care' of the neurologically different folks and proceed on tenderhooks, because that is my difficult role in the marriage and I'm conditioned to it. So, I can't just let my hair down and process my pain, for fear it will spill out like vomit all over the generous aspies who are just trying to help me. This missing piece of the puzzle is, for me, a kind of void that all the helpful aspies in the world could never fill. I think a separate 'safe zone' for struggling spouses of aspies is definitely a necessity at any Aspergers online forum. Just my take on things from the other side of an AS/NT marriage.



Thank you for that acknowledgment. I'm really glad you took the sentiment of my analogy in the spirit it was given, without feeling judged. I seem to have hurt the feelings of the poster who I was responding to, as I believe she felt judged and understood me to be saying she personally would not take care of the bird. If anything, I was trying to give her a real life scenario in which she might be able to identify with. But communication between aspies and NTs is stereotypically rife with false starts and bumpy rides, yet another reason I really need to be posting about my situation on an NT specific subforum.



Well, yes. I have been designated by our counselors and families as his 'emotional seeing eye dog' and since the world we inhabit 'must' comply to his AS point of view at all times and with no deviation from what he will tolerate, I am compelled to use a lot of brain power and energy to help him interpret what the 'inadequate' NT world is 'forcing' on him at any given moment. That means not only must I find new and AS-approved means and methods to describe things to him (and as an NT, that's quite a task), but I must also somehow defend the whole world to him without making excuses for it, because, when I find myself doing that, it really damages my NT self-esteem. I feel incredibly discriminated against as an NT in my own home and over time I've noticed that I'm losing ground on feeling ok with my NT-ness. I mean, his AS fear and rigidity are King and if I try to assert the qualities and attributes of any NT idea or system in an NT way of communicating, he just greets my efforts with a blank look and then proceeds to change the subject to lecture me on one of his special focuses (saying things exactly as I've heard them said by him a thousand times before -- no new data). It's stifling and tough going, thus, my need for outside support.



I read it a long time ago, before any knowledge of AS, so it could be a good to re-read it from a new perspective. Thanks for that lead!



It seems to have piqued the interest of some others here as well, and the responses I've gotten to that statement have been eye-opening. My sense of things, from what I've been exposed to in therapy sessions and in the dynamic of my husband's family, is that aspies are well-protected people who are not just left in the world to figure things out. My husband's family never got a diagnosis of autism for him while he was young, but they 'knew' he was 'different' and they became VERY protective of him and sheltered him throughout his life. They did the best they could, considering the lack of understanding they were operating under, but the result has been that he has had his world padded for him and he fully expects that padding should be maintained by the NTs around him. When he can't get it from family, he finds it at psych wards and monasteries. I don't know that it was necessarily all a bad thing. It did keep him from getting too hurt by a world he couldn't interpret very well. And the tolerance and patience he received has had the effect of making him a giving, caring aspie, where he could've easily gone the other way and be full of outrage and frustration. I see him as an AS success story in many ways. And I have to wonder if it hasn't been, in part, due to how the NTs around him treated him throughout his life.



That sounds similar to what it seems my husband is like at work. A bit distant, but valued and generally liked. He's lucky that he has a job where his quirkiness isn't held against him, but rather, is seen as part and parcel with his brilliance.



Him, too. He just doesn't need that stuff. Buy him a yummy cake, give him a new watch and he's good! No fanfare, no fancy dinner out, no balloons... it all seems a bit silly to him. But, on the otherhand, he's quick to buy me flowers and perfume and plan fancy dinners on our anniversary at the Eiffel Tower and so on, so he is thoughtful about giving something he himself finds to be non-sensical. Another thing I love about him, btw.



Fair enough. And just another area where NT/AS relations could use some work. No NT I know wants a hug from someone who's uncomfortable giving them. I kind of think of it like how the kiss-kiss French greeting doesn't sit well with my American cultural sensibilities. I force myself to do it, but it's uncomfortable every single time. The cool thing is, I have Fr friends who know that, as an Am, I'm not used to it, and so they offer me their hand to shake instead. That's them making room for my differences and not making me feel bad for having them. I always appreciate it and feel so much more relaxed with those people than with the Fr who 'force' me to kiss-kiss.



LOL! That's the story of my marriage at this point! And we both end up feeling bad. Me for yelling and seemingly being unpleasable, and he, for getting it wrong 'all the time'. It's just heartbreaking because NEITHER of us wants the other to be wrong or 'the bad guy' and, conversely, we both suffer from feeling like the jerk in the marriage at the same time. Argh.



Which makes interacting sooooo very tough for all involved. Even when everyone's trying to do their best to get each other.



This has to be the most liberating and informed sentence written by an aspie I've ever read in my 2 year long search for help and understanding. This concept, seemingly so unassuming, is so radical, so groundbreaking, that it might very well be the salvation of many AS/NT relationships. I would add to it, as an informed NT, "NTs can learn. Teach us. Teach your wives."

Thank you for such a wonderfully informative and heartfelt post. I got a lot out of it and only hope to hear more from your perspective as time goes on. Talk soon!

I'd hazard to guess that there is no such thing as Absolute Altruism, because, even in your case where you do the right thing just because it's obviously a needed service, you at least are able to feel good that you finished a necessary chore. It feels good to check a duty off of a list of things to do. So, all human beings, I'm thinking, get SOMETHING out of helping each other, regardless of what that 'something' is.

And making a choice to take care of your job (and therefore yourself and all those who depend upon you) instead of dropper-feeding a baby bird is just good, mature decision-making, IMO.



Yes, it is. Empathy, at its most distilled, is being able to put yourself in the other person's (or living creature's) place and imagine how they are feeling. The implicite result of having that feeling, in NTs anyway, is an urge to do for the other being what you would want for yourself if you were in their dire straits. In our minds, we imagine their pain and fear and we are moved to take it personally. Yes, it is an emotional response and from what I think I understand about AS in general, emotional responses are often regarded as secondary to logic. Acting logically is fine, but without emotion, that is, without love for others, just acting on logic is a closed loop that, in the end, isolates the purely logical person from the rest of the world.

Just my emotional NT take on it, though.