said goodbye to AFF, hello WP!

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i have come to realize that some things do not truly matter. i will first study how to be saved, in detail to make sure i have not missed anything.
when i am in heaven i will ask God himself exactly what he has done or not done.

i worry about other peoples spirits, and where they will end up if they reject God.

sure i find both science and the creation interesting, but i find science to be opposed to religion, and if you cannot accept God into your equation then there is no way your science can be right.

so i want to be clear.
WHAT, (if anything in your opinion) did God create?
WHAT part does God have in science?

in YOUR opinion, not a magazine article.

That is untrue. Science takes no stand on matters of religion. Unfortunately, Religious organizations have tried to force their ignorance into the schools. As I have amply demonstrated, the very lie that "modern science teaches there could be no trees before sunlight" and for this cause, they completely toss evolution in the trash can?

Well, #1, the geological evidence / fossil record stacks up to support evolution as a valid theory, and #2 Science teaches no such thing upon which creationists use as their excuse to disregard evolution as a possible interpretation of Genesis.

In fact, indeed, there is a fossilized organism Prototaxites (earlier in the thread) that debunks the lie propagated by theologians.

Science teaches there was an organism that was very much tree-like (Prototaxites standing somewhere around 20 ft. in height) and being a bona-fide "fruiting fungi" could survive entirely independent of Photosynthesis.



How does rejecting blatant lies of organized religion, while accepting the truths of empirical Science equate to a "lack of acceptance of God"? Please clarify your line of logic. Because I may arrive at different conclusions than yourself, is not any indicator that I have "rejected" God. On the contrary.



Let's start with this:

Please point out where either term, "Create" or "Design," even appear in the text of Genesis, Epoch Three, related to (going strictly by the established fossil record)
1. the introduction of algae around hydrothermal vents on early earth, including
2. forms of soft bodied, non-photosynthetic organisms/plant ancestors... fungi
3. organisms in the likeness of prototaxites (tree-like fungi) .

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth (tender) grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

I will wait patiently, as you read those verses carefully, and point out where the scriptures imply God "designed" any of the "herbs" or other ancestors of modern plant-life.
Rather, "let the earth bring forth .. herbs... after their kind" (that is, an emphatic statement of evolution... and not only mere evolution, but Darwinian evolution: Natural Selection).

I am asking for a term in the Hebrew scripture which implies direct-act of "design".

Speaking of love and marriage, I recently found this on the web...

really, then the big bang? how did that happen?

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

that appears to be created? so if science cannot take that into their equation, they cannot be correct.

you don't find that to be blasphemous?
wow.....

Simply, there is no term that equates to "design" in those verses in either Hebrew or English.



Actually, the time frame is closer to 3 billion years.

Refer back to the page extract from
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp2737387 ... t=#2737387
and take note of the commentary, written by Creationists which mentions "Yowm" the Hebrew word for day which, upon further examination of Hebrew text, often refers to an "Epoch" or "Indefinate period of time". This is where word studies will help you.

Do you recall Adam was forewarned, if he ate the forbidden fruit, "In the day you eat thereof, you will surely die." But Adam is not recorded to have died the same 24 hour day... instead living a whopping 900+ years. So perhaps God was a liar? You can deduce the word "Yowm" implies something other than a 24 hour "day".



Shucks. They threw that theory out and have replaced it with the Solar Nebula Hypothesis
http://science.jrank.org/pages/6265/Sol ... hesis.html



What do you mean by Create? Something that is "Designed" like clockwork, or commanded to exist and act on its own force? Are you implying God "designed" the Cosmos in its imperfect state? Asteroids that drift aimlessly and some on a potential collision course with earth...


Take a look at the destructive power when comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 crashed into the surface of Jupiter.

If everything were so perfectly "designed" as you suggest, why didn't God get it right the first time?

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Why re-create what was supposedly "hand-designed" and perfect from the beginning?

Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den..."

Was it not "designed" perfect from the beginning? Why so much criticism of the harsh realism of tooth and claw in nature? Perhaps because the prophets themselves asked the same questions and made the same observations, Charles Darwin did.

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." (Ephesians 3:9)

21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that moveth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

so your saying that your a better scholar then the people that have translated the bible?

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

His own image would be what? a monkey? amoeba? pre-bacteria?

Romans 8:22

God created it perfect and maintained it. man sinned and the world was from then on an imperfect place.

Ah, New Testament... written thousands of years after the original Hebrew (in Genesis), Ephesians, written in the Greek language.
And, what "mystery". If you're a religion you have patent answers for everything.

I have asked you, Did the text in Genesis describing the introduction of "herbs" in any way, imply "design"? It described God's will that the Earth should bring forth herbs, after their kind, or speciation.

On the question of "Creation" :
Did you know if I take a test tube, and throw in an egg and sperm, and the egg becomes fertilized on its own... I have "created" a fertilized egg... but I have not "designed" the fertilized egg. Doesn't mean I created or designed the egg for that matter.

Creation does not necessarily imply "design".
Similar words, but quite different in meaning.
I have asked for you to point out where the text in Genesis states God *Designed* the herbs.

Creating (as in an indirect command) is different than direct-hands-on Design.

I want you to differentiate the distinction between these two words.

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth (tender) grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

I'm sorry, but a literal reading of Genesis lends more credence to Charles Darwin than Young Earth Creationism.

thanks, i have never met a theistic evolutionist before.
i am afraid no matter what i say you would have a contrary answer, because that is what is supplied on those anti creation web sites. i am afraid at this point i will have to agree to disagree.
i have never been to seminary, and have not studied the entire bible in detail.
as i have said, i believe in literal days, and i also believe that no death could have come before the first sin.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear.

lets try bara.
from genisis 1:1
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons ... /bara.html
and 1:21 created again.

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 01254
Original Word Word Origin
arb a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Bara' TWOT - 278
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
baw-raw' Verb
Definition

1. to create, shape, form
1. (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1. of heaven and earth
2. of individual man
3. of new conditions and circumstances
4. of transformations
2. (Niphal) to be created
1. of heaven and earth
2. of birth
3. of something new
4. of miracles
3. (Piel)
1. to cut down
2. to cut out
2. to be fat
1. (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat


King James Word Usage - Total: 54
create 42, creator 3, choose 2, make 2, cut down 2, dispatch 1, done 1, make fat 1

Knowledge is a wonderful thing. Speaking of the word, "Create," consider the very literal reading of Isaiah:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
- Isaiah 45:7

God creates evil. Perhaps creation of evil, by direct hands-on Design?

A question for you to ponder.

But this does not change the fact, the literal reading of Genesis "Yowm" Three, implies no direct intervention from God to "design" herbs. His command, therefore creation by command, but this is not and never will be, design.