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funeralxempire
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22 Aug 2020, 10:36 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Now, however, the terms "racist", "bigot", "facist", "white supremecist", "nazi", "alt-right", etc. are being used in the same way (and with the same "stain" they apply to their target) as "communist" was back then, to silence those with whom people disagree with (or their opinions) regardless of the appropriatness of the accusation, and with no justification for their use being required. And as none of them (as far as I can tell) contain "derogatory" in their definition, there is apparently nothing wrong with throwing them around at anyone a person on the site disagrees with (see second quote above).


The problem is that those terms aren't used to silence discussion, they're used to describe views that would meet the definition. If someone is advocating for a position that would make the interests of PoC inferior to those of others, it's not unfair to describe that position as white supremacist. Trying to force moderation to ban the use of terms you don't like because muzzling your opponents will make it harder for them to argue their positions is the actual attempt at silencing.


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Brictoria
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22 Aug 2020, 10:37 pm

sly279 wrote:
Australia for example should be more concerned with their own and that of China’s growing control over the world.

sly279 wrote:
Most active members here now are non Americans, yet the political posts are all about America?


Strangely enough, what happens in America has a habit of affecting the rest of the world to varying degrees, and political sites in\for one country (for example an Australian one) won't have many (any?)people from America there, in order to ask for clarification of certain events\policies\etc.

The only way to get that "local" understanding of poliics in a different country is to go somewhere that has a number of people from that area.

As to the concern regarding the CCP...That is important to us down here, and how America deals with China will have a major impact on how China acts (and is treated) by other countries.



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22 Aug 2020, 10:49 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Now, however, the terms "racist", "bigot", "facist", "white supremecist", "nazi", "alt-right", etc. are being used in the same way (and with the same "stain" they apply to their target) as "communist" was back then, to silence those with whom people disagree with (or their opinions) regardless of the appropriatness of the accusation, and with no justification for their use being required. And as none of them (as far as I can tell) contain "derogatory" in their definition, there is apparently nothing wrong with throwing them around at anyone a person on the site disagrees with (see second quote above).


The problem is that those terms aren't used to silence discussion, they're used to describe views that would meet the definition. If someone is advocating for a position that would make the interests of PoC inferior to those of others, it's not unfair to describe that position as white supremacist. Trying to force moderation to ban the use of terms you don't like because muzzling your opponents will make it harder for them to argue their positions is the actual attempt at silencing.


That is the justification I have seen MANY times here:
Call someone a "racist"...but never with any details\explanation as to how the person doing so came to the conclusion, no effort to try and determine if it was a misunderstanding, or assistance to help educate them on what was wrong, simply a pavlovian "I don't like that - they must be "racist".

Even when asking for an explanation, no information is supplied.

There is a difference (which I have pointed out on a number of occasions) between explaining to someone how their views appear racist compared to simply calling the person a racist. Similarly sometimes one person's "advocating for a position that would make the interests of PoC inferior to those of others" is another person's "advocating for a position where the underlying issue (which affects PoC and non-PoC alike) be addressed rather than just focussing on how PoC are affected by the issue." - both seek to get to a similar place, but one is focussed on the race of those affected, while the other on getting rid of the cause of the problem so that no-one is affected by it in future regardless of race.



funeralxempire
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22 Aug 2020, 11:04 pm

Brictoria wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Now, however, the terms "racist", "bigot", "facist", "white supremecist", "nazi", "alt-right", etc. are being used in the same way (and with the same "stain" they apply to their target) as "communist" was back then, to silence those with whom people disagree with (or their opinions) regardless of the appropriatness of the accusation, and with no justification for their use being required. And as none of them (as far as I can tell) contain "derogatory" in their definition, there is apparently nothing wrong with throwing them around at anyone a person on the site disagrees with (see second quote above).


The problem is that those terms aren't used to silence discussion, they're used to describe views that would meet the definition. If someone is advocating for a position that would make the interests of PoC inferior to those of others, it's not unfair to describe that position as white supremacist. Trying to force moderation to ban the use of terms you don't like because muzzling your opponents will make it harder for them to argue their positions is the actual attempt at silencing.


That is the justification I have seen MANY times here:
Call someone a "racist"...but never with any details\explanation as to how the person doing so came to the conclusion, no effort to try and determine if it was a misunderstanding, or assistance to help educate them on what was wrong, simply a pavlovian "I don't like that - they must be "racist".

Even when asking for an explanation, no information is supplied.

There is a difference (which I have pointed out on a number of occasions) between explaining to someone how their views appear racist compared to simply calling the person a racist. Similarly sometimes one person's "advocating for a position that would make the interests of PoC inferior to those of others" is another person's "advocating for a position where the underlying issue (which affects PoC and non-PoC alike) be addressed rather than just focussing on how PoC are affected by the issue." - both seek to get to a similar place, but one is focussed on the race of those affected, while the other on getting rid of the cause of the problem so that no-one is affected by it in future regardless of race.


I'm usually willing to explain although I also will argue for the right to not have to. Sometimes it's exhausting, especially after working 10 hours with a stressful job. I understand that I'm unlikely to budge anyone's opinion without making a case, so generally I'd prefer to make one. I'm less likely if it's the same case I made last week, and the week before, and the week before, etc, but I believe you can understand that.

Despite the way people sometimes act towards me, I'm not the lovechild of Griselda Blanco and a mad wizard, completely aloof, inaccessible and intent on keeping it that way by any means. If you'd really like an explanation and I've so far refused, shoot me a PM. It might take awhile before I can give it the attention it needs (a half-assed explanation isn't much better than none at all, so I tend to deal with that stuff when I had the energy to do so which sadly isn't often).

You've PM'd me before and while we didn't entirely agree I believe I took you seriously and listened to what you had to say.

For what it's worth, that's not just criticism towards you, in general people here appear to ignore me for years and then at random someone will mention that they're fond of me, but since no one ever acts in a manner that would suggest this fondness it's easy to feel like all I ever contribute is annoying everyone by trying to prod us towards being better in this regard.

If you guys need me I'll be back in my tower, don't mind the lightning it's just to keep the mosquitoes at bay.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Make America Great (Depression) Again


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22 Aug 2020, 11:08 pm

People in america are marching with confederate flags and saying they're not white supremacists but it's literally what the flag stands for. It stands for the nation created by traitors who seceded from the union because they wanted to be allowed to own black people as slaves.

So it's pretty clear that this is nothing like McCarthyism where people were just accused of being secret communist sympathizers. People are literally out in the streets carrying flags that stand for these things...


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22 Aug 2020, 11:09 pm

America seems to be the car engine or the car battery or car gasoline of the world. If our country collapse, it will affect other countries as well. If our country economy suffers, it affects other countries as well. So that is why other countries are focused on American politics. When I went to EU in 2004, I was surprised how there was so much American news in their media. The focus was on our president and the war.

But here to the US, we barely hear about other countries and their politics. :scratch:


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22 Aug 2020, 11:10 pm

Except people here on wp were litterally accused of being white supremist sympathizers


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funeralxempire
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22 Aug 2020, 11:11 pm

League_Girl wrote:
America seems to be the car engine or the car battery or car gasoline of the world. If our country collapse, it will affect other countries as well. If our country economy suffers, it affects other countries as well. So that is why other countries are focused on American politics. When I went to EU in 2004, I was surprised how there was so much American news in their media. The focus was on our president and the war.

But here to the US, we barely hear about other countries and their politics. :scratch:


Try visiting Canada. At least Europe has centuries of their own cultures and an ocean. Living in Canada you near about American issues at least as much as Canadian issues, not to mention how often the two are intertwined.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
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22 Aug 2020, 11:11 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I would like to debate or argue on an academic level.


Same.
More critical thinking.
Less groupthink.



funeralxempire
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22 Aug 2020, 11:11 pm

sly279 wrote:
Except people here on wp were litterally accused of being white supremist sympathizers


While expressing their sympathy for those guys Alex was describing.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
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22 Aug 2020, 11:14 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Except people here on wp were litterally accused of being white supremist sympathizers


While expressing their sympathy for those guys Alex was describing.


If you express support for the people marching in the unite the right rally, you're expressing support for white supremacists.


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22 Aug 2020, 11:15 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
That being said, a forum like PPR requires by the nature of the thing some greater leeway for things like mockery and heckling (no excuses for outright attacks, though).


I am a satirist.
It takes intelligence and wit to do it well.
Thankfully, I have both in abundance. 8) :mrgreen:

I hope humour isn't going to be a casualty of this war. :ninja:



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22 Aug 2020, 11:18 pm

alex wrote:
People in america are marching with confederate flags and saying they're not white supremacists but it's literally what the flag stands for. It stands for the nation created by traitors who seceded from the union because they wanted to be allowed to own black people as slaves.

So it's pretty clear that this is nothing like McCarthyism where people were just accused of being secret communist sympathizers. People are literally out in the streets carrying flags that stand for these things...


And yet on this site, people are being labelled "white supremecist" for saying something another member does not agree with - no flags waved, no explanation provided - just a pavlovian "you're a [white supremecist\racist\bigot\...]" in responce to something that they disagree with - And this has been ongoing here for months, leading to many members leaving, and the impression any potential member of the site would have of this being a place where diversity of thought was not wanted, and only those who held certain beliefs were wanted.

If what you want is a site where only people who hold left algned views are welcome, the site is well on the way there, as anyone with a centrist or right-wing view are certainly being made to feel unwanted here.



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22 Aug 2020, 11:19 pm

Teach51 wrote:

We could at least issue everyone with pepper spray to be on the safe side before they enter PP&R and News &Current Events, it would have helped me when I wandered in innocently on my first day and was pulverised within moments. :lol:


Men pulverizing women?
What heroes. :evil:

If there were women involved,
I am sorry I missed "The Cat Fight". <meow> :mrgreen:



Last edited by Pepe on 22 Aug 2020, 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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22 Aug 2020, 11:21 pm

Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
People in america are marching with confederate flags and saying they're not white supremacists but it's literally what the flag stands for. It stands for the nation created by traitors who seceded from the union because they wanted to be allowed to own black people as slaves.

So it's pretty clear that this is nothing like McCarthyism where people were just accused of being secret communist sympathizers. People are literally out in the streets carrying flags that stand for these things...


And yet on this site, people are being labelled "white supremecist" for saying something another member does not agree with - no flags waved, no explanation provided - just a pavlovian "you're a [white supremecist\racist\bigot\...]" in responce to something that they disagree with - And this has been ongoing here for months, leading to many members leaving, and the impression any potential member of the site would have of this being a place where diversity of thought was not wanted, and only those who held certain beliefs were wanted.


If you're expressing sympathy for the guys with the flags you don't need a flag of your own.

Seriously, you don't get to treat me speaking the literal truth as a personal attack.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Make America Great (Depression) Again


Last edited by envirozentinel on 23 Aug 2020, 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.: off topic remarks removed

sly279
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22 Aug 2020, 11:25 pm

alex wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Except people here on wp were litterally accused of being white supremist sympathizers


While expressing their sympathy for those guys Alex was describing.


Yeah if you express support for the people marching in the unite the right rally, you're expressing support for white supremacists. So what exactly does that make you? It seems fairly straightforward to me.


Being against rioting and killing people means I’m a white supremacist, if that’s what you think then i don't know what to say.


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Last edited by envirozentinel on 23 Aug 2020, 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.: personal remark removed