We were lied to

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Well that sounds like math to me.......I don't really go out and shop that much really, but yeah I don't really know what a calculator would do to help. I mean if a I want/need something and can afford it I get it, if not well then I don't. If I had some nessisary expenses then I might put more effort into being more organized about my spending but at the moment that is not the case.

Even so I dont think I could handle all the social interactions needed to run a buisiness, and I certainly do not think I am a very organized person so that might do more harm than good. Its all good though, owning a buisiness is not my life goal.

What you say is true. But it doesn't make college any less of a scam. They've devalued the degree by trying to make college "for everyone". Also, college is essentially a business. The student is the client and accordingly the university ought to render the service it advertises. Schools advertise via culture and this advertisement is full of lies, and the young people in high school preparing to make the decision to go to university are very susceptible to these lies because of their lack of perspective.
Regardless, the schools are just very bad at giving their students quality service. The main reason for this, I believe, is that each school essentially has a monopoly over its students once they are enrolled since the personal cost of transferring to another school is very high. Additionally, obtaining real pertinent information about schools is nearly impossible since all of those school ratings basically operate on superficial factors or factors irrelevant to the quality of service. So the customers (i.e. the prospective students) have limited lateral movement between service providers and limited ability to determine the quality of the service at any given school. There's no natural competition between schools for clients like there would be in the business world. Since society places such critical value to education, this makes the services school's offer an essential now. Do you see how this is rotten?
All of this results in the ability of schools to (somewhat) subtly rip-off the students and (more importantly) mistreat students with little ramifications to the school's profits.

You're making it seem like the situation is nobody's fault, and rather just the blind hand of economics. But you're missing how the hard-working and intelligent young people like me are getting exploited by this system. I've hardly gotten my money's worth in undergrad. The work I've done in school would be equivalent to tons of cash if I were working a job. On top of this, I am forced to waste my time and money on "general education requirements" which are just devices to keep people in the system for four years. Also, I was forced to live in dorms for 2 years when it would have been cheaper and for more conducive to health to live in my own apartment. Doubly also, all that cash me and my fellow students pump into the system really doesn't get back around to me, millions are wasted on completely frivolous projects. Triply also, everything about the bureaucracy and their various regulations is designed to castrate me. I know from personal acquaintances and from conversations online that the situation is similar in at least a dozen other public universities.
See? Scam.

Here's something to chew on: Colleges are one of the few places where the paying customer has to park the furthest from the door.

When I went to college in the mid-1980s, customer service was not one of the university's strong points. I've always looked at the student/university relationship as a customer/provider relationship and frankly there's a lot of room for improvement.

I left university before graduating due to poor grades and have worked as a metallurgical/materials engineering technician for 25 years. Despite having more knowledge than many of the engineers I work for, I'll never be an engineer. I lack the degree.

i want to finish school and become a great person.
even tho i have a disability.
i dont care what anyone tells me.
some pepole tell me i cant do it.
others set to high goals for me.
im not afraid of failing anymore.
i used to be but not anymore.
dont listen to what pepole say.
they are liars.

And on top of this, from everything I've heard (both people I know in person, and also those on the internet) colleges have gotten much worse since the 80's. And will most likely continue to get worse until they're cash cows (err students) start demanding better and hitting them where it counts (money, of course). Their other sources of funds like government grants and donations usually don't act in the interest of the students because the people determining who gets the money from these sources are just simply too far removed from reality (well-intentioned or not) to serve as clout on the table for better service for students.

I'd be surprised if I would have to deal with an equivalent amount of 'horse manure' in the job market, but even if I did I'd be paid to deal with it.

Firstly, you should read this publication ASAP. http://www9.georgetown.edu/grad/gppi/hp ... .Final.pdf

Now, college is NOT worthless nor is it a scam. I would like to know what you have for a college undergraduate major because far away are the days were 'just' a college degree in anything could land you a job.

Universities care about expanding, obtaining a high quality student population, and research. They are funded through undergraduate tuition and endowments. There are very few "for profit" universities and many of them such as DeVry and the University of Phoenix are under lawsuits for the financial traps they ensnare their students in to.

On to the basics. Did you know that all of that undergraduate work you have to do is for an Associates Degree equiviliancy? The idea is that, for universities, if students cant pass those classes and possibly get an associates degree, they shouldnt have to waste their money on hiring additional professors for the specialty classes for students who will fail anyway. Bachelor's degrees are typically non-vocational. If you are going to college because you want more money, you may find yourself severly disappointed and under the illusion that everything you are doing is for nothing. You'll be better served in a vocational or business specific school (many universities have business schools as well). Many students are disillusioned with what they thought college was going to be/be for and this happens to be why, for every nation, universities have high drop-out rates.

As for forcing you to stay in a dorm for 2 years, usually (not everywhere) it is cheaper to stay in the dorm after you account for having to buy your own food, electricity, water, cable, internet, parking spot, appliances, furniture, etc..

Colleges and Universities are not out to monopolize anything. Keep in mind though, that there is a flood of people wanting to go to these schools, especially in a bad economy! This makes college degrees worth less because everyone is getting one! This is a prime example of the invisible hand of economics.

As for not being able to move between schools easily. That is because there are different regional accredation services that these schools operate under. So classes from one system may not transfer to another due to who the school is accredited by.


Keep in mind these facts. 1) People who graduate from college are still more likely to get a job (less likely than 5 years ago but, the number is very significant compared to HS diplomas), 2) People who graduate college with an associates degree experience a significant jump in pay than someone with a HS diploma. 3) There are lots of people going through colleges now, expect a great deal of competition to get a basic retail job, 4) The degree you pick makes all the difference now. so don't just pick history, english, or psychology. Actually pick a science or consider doing something that requires graduate work. 5) People who go to college because they only want to make money are going to find that often times, they will make less money and are more likely to become frustrated and not take what they are learning to heart. The Occupy movement is learning this the hard way.

I believe I already said so, but in case I didn't: double major in math and CS with intentions of attending a math PhD program. I'm completing the last of my application in the next few days, in fact. And according to the link you just gave me, it looks like I am personally in good standing as far as numbers are concerned. But it's not just about me, and it's not just about unemployment numbers.



On the face of it they "care" about a lot of things, but when it comes down to practicalities there are many ways in which they don't care for the students. The relationship between students and university is rightly viewed as a client and service provider relationship (respectively). They are failing in this regard. I've already gone in depth about this in earlier posts.



You make it sound as though the students are a bunch of dunderheads with no direction. The real fix to this (unfortunate) situation is to increase the standards of education in high school since (as you've basically said yourself) one really needs an associates degree or an equivalent to make it in the job market regardless. So why waste everyone's time on a high school education that doesn't have any intrinsic value to the student nor does it signal competency to employers? Otherwise, the end result is that the most talented/hard working students get the shaft.



Simply not true; I've done both. Having my own apartment is cheaper. I live in a relatively crappy apartment so the rent is low, but the living conditions are higher than the dorms (not difficult to achieve) and being able to purchase food from a grocery store means I have more options to eat healthy and budget than on a school meal plan. I'm also stingy on my energy use. I also have no cable, just internet. It is cheaper this way.

The key idea being that I have options and control to lower my costs.



Don't just blame the blind forces of nature, these falling education standards didn't get this way by themselves. Policies were put into place and culture was purposefully shifted to get us into the current situation. Education needs to adapt to the changing needs of society (which are reflected in the changing needs of current potential employees and employers), and it is clearly failing to do so.



Regardless of the reasons, this effectively limits lateral mobility for students between institutions and consequently limits the ability for the student (or rather parents in most cases) to take their money elsewhere. Universities can and do take advantage of power imbalance. Don't like a policy? Too bad. You either suck it up or waste thousands of dollars on classes that wont necessarily count elsewhere. Besides the social pressures from peers, the university and (most importantly) the students parents to just stick to the university they originally enrolled in.




I think I've basically addressed all of these facts and how they are irrelevant to my conclusion in my above ramblings.
You should keep in mind that you're coming off as needlessly condescending.
Though I should thank you in that replying to you has made my own arguments clearer to me.

@anxiouspoet

I believe you have a lot of misguided conceptions about the public education system and the purpose of Universities. Your writing is also very conflicting as to the point you actually want to make.

What you are complaining about does pertain solely to the economy. Why would changes in education need to take place if not to make people happier? You're talking about students who cant get jobs with the degrees they are getting and as a result, they cant do the things they set out to do. That pertains to the economy. A persons quality of life, their happiness.

I'm curious, would you rather make money or be happy?

The purpose of a University is to educate people in realms of higher knowledge. Universities have never traditionally been asked to take the place of vocational schools. This is a very recent development (within the last 100 years). Education is a very slow force and the quality of someones education is dependent on 1) How much emphasis they place on their own education and 2) The quality of tools/accessibility of education.

You are asking, with this whole line of thought and argument "Why go to college?". Not "College is a Scam". The statements, while they sound similar, are very different. College being a scam would result in colleges having no worth as many people would recognize this and choose something different. You're asking, in the end, "Why go to college because its a scam?" As a result, you're still asking "Why go to college?"

In the end, why did you decide to go to college? You said that you feel it was a waste to take these general education classes yet you still are going, taking those classes. Why do you feel this way? You're doing it because, in the end, you want to do something and college is your barrier to entry. College is a barrier to entry for many people, no matter how bad or good the college they went to is. People do it because they want to be happy. While it is true that many are misguided as to what they want to do with their lives before, during, and after college, you have to understand that at the end of the day, people must do what they need to do and going to college is just that for many. These people will not be wasting their talents provided they understand that work in what they want to do may be limited and they may need to wait or do additional things before they can do what they really want.

I have multiple degrees in education and multiple teaching licences. I have a job doing what I like and I have worked very hard to make sure I have that job and can keep it. This includes having worked on additional certifications beyond what I've mentioned for 2 1/2 years while working a part-time job. You seem to have a very set way of thought and a determination to prove that college is a scam. Again I ask why? I work in education, if I don't have a degree, I don't get a position. I'm not exactly promised a position right out of college either for that matter and often times teachers require multiple certifications after the degree before they can go to work.

You're accusing me of blaming the 'blind forces of nature'. You can call it that but, culture is a force of human nature and those failing standards you speak of are a result of that culture. Those failing standards are not on the part of educators, they are on the part of your parents who want to see you have a better life than they have had. They have far more influence on the culture of education based on money and political influence as a congregation than any other group. They have made decisions, for better or for worse, under the pretense of helping their kids. No group thinks more blindly than those who have both money and political influence.

I will admit, there are colleges out there who have bad student services (as a result degrading the quality of tools or dorm requirements). However, there are very few orginizations that can handle the requests of thousands on a day to day basis effectively. Many of these people working for admissions or human resources for schools (public or university) probably dont consider their jobs ideal either, so they are less motivated to work.

I'm not saying that there aren't bad colleges and schools out there but, before you go berating my rebutal to your statements, calling me needlessly condecending, I ask that you perhaps give your line of thought some reflection. After all, why might someone like myself come off as 'needlessly condecending' if I didn't have a reason to possibly be that way?

There are two basic points I'm making:
(i) Universities have been providing progressively lower quality service to students in recent decades. I have discussed my theories for why this is.
(ii) The devaluing of the degree is an immense problem in society as it economically burdens nearly every family. It is also completely unfair to students.

I'll admit my prose has been less than perfectly organized, but there has been nothing conflicting about what I have written.



If you are referring to my comment about "it's not just about unemployment numbers" as I believe you are then:
(i) I clearly didn't say it wasn't about the economy in its entirety.
(ii) I was making it clear that there are other problems with the system such as the issues in (i) from above which are not directly related to the unemployment issues.
(iii) You are right to say this is an economical issue and that is exactly the angle by which I have been attacking it throughout this entire discussion. I have analysed the economic situation from the viewpoints of student, employer and university.



I'm not entirely sure what you're implying, but obviously I'd rather be happy. The only reason anyone ever wanted money is because that thought it was necessary for their happiness.


That's precisely my point! The universities have been failing not only to accommodate students (as an institution who relies in large part on their clients money ought to do), but increasingly are failing to provide "higher learning". As I said before, this is a result of making college for everyone instead of increasing standards in the high schools (where the standards are currently pathetic).



A bit of a straw man here. The fact that one must go to college in order to avoid poverty in the contemporary economy is what makes the "college scam" particularly heinous. Also I don't wish to quibble over semantics: being a scam doesn't mean it has no value to the scammed. Especially when part of the scam is forcing one to undergo the scheme in order to avoid even more deleterious repercussions.



All you've really done here is imply that I should suck it up and not complain. But you see, I've already sucked it up! I'm already successful in the (broken) academic system. But I don't wish the falling quality of service to continue for the millions after me who have to endure the process.



Implying that I don't (or wont) work hard? Implying that I wont earn my degrees? What is your point in saying this? To belittle me?
It's good for you that you worked hard and are now successfully employed but this has little bearing on the discussion.



...ok? I have only assimilated my personal experiences in a logical way. I never set out to show that college is a scam. In fact, it's not something that I wanted to admit at first. It makes all the hard work I did seem less important.



I'm not focusing so much on educators as I am the bureaucracy and politicians of the universities. And don't you see that I agree with you here! These issues are causing college to be a scam. I'm not implying some centralized conspiracy with the word "scam", you must understand. Simply that students are getting ripped off.
And I apologize if you've taken any of this personally as an educator. I certainly don't blame individual teachers or professors. It's part of the problem that all these policies tie the hands of teachers who have the potential to provide higher quality service to their students than what they are now mandated to do.



Yes you're right, a large part of the burden of responsibility lies with the education policy makers. The reason universities are being overloaded goes back to those falling education standards in high school. That is, making college for everyone because nearly everyone needs a college degree to get by. Now is a time when we desperately need to see an increase in education standards in high school. By your own admission, most people need at least an associates degree to make it in the job market, so why not offer that level of education as standard to teens? High schools used to provide a degree that was "good enough" to navigate the world and make a living. They should be held to that same standard now. Of course many things would have to change in secondary and tertiary education to achieve this goal, but we are certainly not on the right track now. And I've already talked about the negative symptoms arising as a result of the recent unfortunate trends.



Honestly I don't know. If you're taking any of this personally as an educator then you've misunderstood my accusations. I hope I have clarified this in this most recent post.
And if you're going to talk about who might have a reason to be a certain "way" in their post, maybe you should think about why I might have a reason to be offended by your condescending tone. I'm not trying to engender hostility here, merely asserting myself.

The points I am trying to make are (counter to yours):

1) Universities are providing the same education that they have for hundreds of years with modifications for changes in philosophy and expanding fields of knowledge.
2) The degree is becoming devalued because everyone wants to have one and it is more possible than 50 years ago to get one (due to financial aid and such things).

Back in the day when high school diplomas could land you a job, there were many who dropped out, joined the army, or just simply never completed high school. Now, it is standard for everyone to graduate high school and it is taken for granted. Is it because high school is too easy? Not really, people just have the expectation that they must graduate from high school as everyone else who did ended up successful, landed jobs, and could get a fulfilling career. The same thing is happening to people graduating with college diplomas.

In 1940 (according to the 2010 census), only 25% of the popluation had a high school diploma. You could land some serrious jobs with this back then. That number has jumped to 85% as of 2008 for people who have a high school diploma. The high school diploma is now worthless. Has the quality of education changed? Yes and no. It is easier to find information and educate yourself if you happen to have a bad teacher now but, schools haven't exactly become worse since the 1940s.

Looking at college diplomas, about 5% had bachelors degrees in 1940. There was a jump to 10% in the 1970s (our parents generation), and now as of 2008, 27.7% of people aged 25 and older have bachelor level degrees and above. In 60 years, the number of people who have obtained higher education jumped by apx 22%. This is an astonishing number for educators and people in business! This is one of the many reasons I am saying that you're not getting less of an education but, that the devaluation of the degree is due to the number of people holding higher degrees of education.

While there is bureaucracy, a slew of new laws, and lots of politics in education, the degree is not becoming devalued because of what is being learned. It is being devalued by the sheer number of people going to college and obtaining degrees. Currently, there are no empirically valid studies showing us that Universities currently have a lower quality of education than in the past. Of course, it's only been in the last few years that research has been done on what constitutes as a 'quality education' in high education research, this includes what future employers and current students feel as quality indicators and controls. There is a good posibility that the debate will go away by the time the question is fully answered as to the quality of education given at the highest of levels.

All the same, current research and associated data indicates that because so many people are obtaining degrees now, the value of the bachelors degree has become less than in the past. The reason for some of my jabs (and I'm sorry if they come off as crass) are to get across the point that this is the current path and driving force behind what everyone is observing. Amongst educators, it is generally accepted that everyone must go to college. This, even if it means that college degrees will diminish greatly, is the path that is being pushed. This is an unstoppable force that has yet to meet its immovable object and as more people obtain these higher degrees, colleges will continue to search for the best students (to the point of making it so that only people with 4.0s can get in out of HS...yes, its going to happen soon) and businesses will be less likely to hire an individual with said degree when they can have 50 other people with the same credentials (Possibly some extras).

This is why I've been saying what I have been so far.

As a side note. I do feel that it is somewhat of an unfair notion that everyone must be able to get into/is suited for a university. (A point I argue with other educators all the time over as the current idea is that 'everyone must go to college no matter what others think'.) It's just that the drive behind the current theories are so strong, to remain competitive as a nation, that best practices may be overlooked. It is on this I agree with you. Otherwise, the reasoning behind why college degrees are becoming devalued still stands and has empirical evidence backing it up.

This might be helpful.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q[/youtube]

Although I don't think I was lied to about the value of having a college degree and getting a good job, I don't think I was adequately informed either. I too am from a STEM field (meteorology), but have been unable to find a good job. In addition, I have a Master's degree in the subject, which has not helped a wee bit in terms of employment prospects.

I kind of feel like my professors failed to inform me of what employment prospects are like in my field. Meteorology is an extremely cutthroat profession where many are not successful in obtaining employment in the field upon graduating. I would've really appreciated it if my professors had taken the time to explain to freshmen students that in addition to being a very difficult major, jobs in meteorology are very scarce and competitive. This would've saved a lot of students the trouble of failing sophomore calculus and physics classes and having to start over with a new major; or worse - as in my case - having two degrees that don't mean anything in the real-world. I graduated with a 3.96 GPA, but no one cares. I didn't really discover this until it was too late and I had nearly finished the program. Even though the failure to inform is not really outright lying in my opinion, it is not honest either.

Then again, the professors are there to do their job and help the university make money. If they tell students the truth behind a certain profession and scare people away, they may draw fire from the university since it winds up hurting the school financially. I think the professors are not saying anything in many cases since they're simply trying to protect their own jobs and livelihoods. That said, I think I'd place more blame on the school administration than on the individual profs. I liked my profs tremendously and I don't think its their fault that many, including myself, don't have a job.
Unfortunately, this means that is really up to the student to research a particular field before deciding to pursue it as a career, something that a lot of young students are not really encouraged to do.

Granted my AS makes it hard for me to connect socially with people and I think this is another major reason why I don't have a job - any job, not necessarily one in my field. In a tough economy, knowing people is paramount. I am now looking to get some training in the IT field, a field that appears to have much better employment prospects than meteorology.

There is no one single party whom you can punch in the face for being responsible. You have to blame the entire job market for this scam. You'll have a lot of faces to punch...

Like your political representatives, company executives, human resources personnel...

Well the only way to get a big job done is to roll up your sleeves and get crackin'

I agree wholeheartedly, granted, I am not past my first year yet in college, but even in high school as an observer I was able to see this truth. This is the reason why I am constantly pissed off when I am in school, not because I just want to be rebellious, but because the whole gorram system is broken and archaic. How it has survived this long is a bit of a mystery. Same could be said about a lot of things in our modern society to be honest...