The college scam in the U.S

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I have to say that I'm Canadian so school cost almost nothing. USA cost of education is ridiculous and it's probably due to the non-interventionist ideology of Americans.

College is obviously not a scam.

Here is why many people end up with bad jobs after going to college :
- They chose an extremely non-employable degree without having future realizable and concrete goals in mind.
- They studied without doing any internship or research to further develop their real-life skills.
- They stop at the bachelor level when they should probably do a master or a mba.

If you don't do these things you have good chance of getting a good job and having what you want. In life, you have to plan everything, be committed and have ambition.

What I really hate is how people tends to say things like "college won't get you a job so it's useless". That kind of statement is very wrong. First, school is there to develop our knowledge and thinking abilities. I didn't have any good analytical and logical reasoning skills until I started studying Math. Secondly, stop talking about jobs but start talking about careers! Do you think Einstein or any scientific could have discovered anything by not studying? Oh today I'm going to invent computers, electricity or maybe cars by just using my real-life experience.


Btw, DW I agree with you that the way admissions are made is bad. I was lucky that in sciences they didn't take the grades too much into account(no standardized test either). It's more like you enter and if you can't follow the materials you get dropped out. I find this much better.

I'm glad someone agrees with me =)

Perhaps the former, but absolutely not the latter.

"Discipline" is laughable in most schools because you get a passing grade for doing very, very little. Making any effort can get you a B in most classes and just doing what the teacher asked for will likely get you an A. Granted, I am amazed at how poorly some students do in spite of how much accommodation the school makes for those not willing to make the effort.

"Social education?"

Not one class in this. It is something you either learn or don't learn. Sadly, it is a critical factor and should be taught because (based on my generation) (1) many students have poor social skills for the business/workplace environment. What you do with your friends is not what is acceptable in police society, (2) people like us will never otherwise learn proper social skills as we are outside the normal (sic) social channels on campus.

Question for those saying you should major in something "practical".....

It seems virtually all the "practical" degrees require advanced math skills. What are those who suck at math supposed to do?
That's why I get annoyed with the people who denigrate liberal arts degrees. Individuals have different strengths and weaknesses. I bet many of those who excel at math and science would struggle with the liberal arts.

As someone who hates math, I sympathize.

Still, I advocate getting a "practical" degree because my other degrees have proven to be worthless in getting me gainful employment.

My 2 cents. If the "practical" degrees are not for you, forget about college and find vocational tech training in something you are good at. To have a degree that won't help you get a job is just time and money wasted.

Heh....I don't think vocational training is a good idea for those of us who are uncoordinated and thus don't work well with their hands (which I suspect is many Aspies). Then again, I do work with mine at my current job...ugh.

As far as I'm concerned, your 2 cents is worth 4, but the key word is practical. I have two degrees, both technical and "practical" for me. I see the term "practical" as being more specific to the individual. If you don't know what you plan to do with your degree, more often than not none is practical.
My engineering degrees did not primarily focus on technical knowledge, the focus was always on training students to think, to analyse, and to learn about the task or content as needed; logic over memory. My education has allowed me to rebuild engines, start a business, and create a very productive home garden; none of these would seem realistic to me prior to my education. I have watched many of my classmates graduate with an engineering degree and go into jobs in the field, finance jobs, teaching, research, government policy, etc. thanks to the tools they developed in college; not reading or simple math.
On the other hand, a lot of people I know got less "practical" degrees. The work some of these colleages did for those degrees is more or less just four extra years of high school, and I feel like many of them have wasted their time.
My perception, one that many of my colleages in higher education agree with, is that students go to college to develop a toolbox to help them function in their career roles later.
The massive trend among students these days is to enrol in programs they can do, but with no long term plan, so they work on a degree with no career aspirations; the lack of direction means they don't know what skills they should be developing, and they graduate with a sordid and disfunctional set of tools, regardless of the degree. No wonder it is so hard to find a job.
Some people will attack liberal arts, but I commend those who get an arts degree which equips them for their intended career (I'd hate to have to deal with a therapist with an engineering degree, it just doesn't fit). Rather than attack college or certain programs offered, we should be asking why high school councilors are pushing students into college with no post-college direction.
The real need for college training in networking and professional conduct is being acknowledge by more progressive schools, and the trend seems to be quickly spreading to more traditional or conservative institutions. It seems that this is the evolution of education, where a trained professional used to spend weeks on a design or formula or project, modern technology accelerates this, and the social/professional networking aspect of the modern workplace is of more importance for those entering it, as their roles will undoubtedly focus more on using a composite of external resources to complete the same tasks. Undergrads at my school have hundreds of hours of non-credit professional development short-courses to complete along with courses in order to graduate, and these are not optional.

Hehe funny you should mention that because I find that AS has given me the gift of very good hands on ability and coordination... that's why I want to go into dentistry or a surgical discipline.... though with my poor social skills and the fact that there is a bias against people with AS in this society, chances are slim for me. That's why I think in some cases, as I have mentioned before, college can be, I prefer the word rip-off.

Vocational training is about learning a skill set for a specific job. It's faster, cheaper, and more effective if in an in-demand field. It is not "coordination" dependent for all things that could be trained in a vo-tech school.

If early education was more comprehensive and exploratory and interest-directed high schoolers would have more skills and interests by the time they graduate.
Repetition and redundancy is running amok.

I don't think college training is a waste BUT I think there are way too many hours required in a liberal arts bachelors degree.The end point of college should not be to teach people to think, but to expand their analytic skills while also apprenticing them for a skill. I totally believe that any degree could be reformatted into a "marketable" productive skill acknowledgement. Oh you mean it isn't that now? Well some are like Computer Science, Lab Sciences, Education but the other generic History, Psychology Anthropology are not.
History people could easily be trained to be archivists in that amount of time, but no, the business model makes that skill another degree at the Masters level.

Just think technical school + extra broad based perspective building liberal arts courses. Maybe 3 years to completion max: 75-80 semester hours.

I am also dissatisfied with my Masters because while I am learning from new material not offered at my undergrad school, I also have to repeat previous material in future classes without the benefit of apprenticing or expanding my skill-set.

At the University of Toronto, we have three levels to choose from - minor, major and specialist. In terms of required credits and intensity of courses, specialist > major > minor. Just thought I'd define that before I begin.

Personally, my passions are East Asian Studies, History, Economics, Politics, etc.
All of these degrees, for the most part, are Arts degrees. When I went into University, I was told "just do what you love." It sounded great to me, but the more research I did, the more I found that these degrees were not well-respected in the workforce. I had to re-think my plan. Now, I've found myself doing an Economics Specialist and a Mathematics Major (BSc. Hon.). I hate maths. But if I want to have the freedom of choice when I leave University, and if I want to get into the top graduate schools and really go on to do what I love in the future, I need these hard skills and abilities.
I haven't given up on my dreams of working in East Asia, probably as a professional Economist in some capacity, but I need to bite the bullet and knuckle down. There are plenty of opportunities at the University to indulge my other passions, but in terms of academia, I feel that I made the right decision.

I know that plenty of people will disagree with me, but I'm just throwing in the path I chose.

I feel my arts degree is a complete waste of time now especially because of what is going on here. But everyone is encouraging me to stay despite all of this crap because of some unique talent... Stuck in a dead end.. Need to quit and get a cert.

It's not that I don't have the passion cause the spirit is there but, the mental illness is preventing me from functioning, socially and academically... sigh

Been there and now I am back there again. I know exactly what you mean but I have a hard time convincing others that I really am not being non-committal.
I HAVE the passion for my field, but the economy and job situation has me thinking that I need a solid backup trade.

Actually doing fairly well now, but I am making too many stupid writing mistakes from poor editing.

Overall though I think your insight is smart. Don't take this personally, but there are many artists and musician (read performers) who do very well without formal educations.
You need a mentor and maybe some lessons and critique, but you don't need to spend thousands every four months for that. Practice and performing art can be self directed or private.

Art History and Music History or Ethnomusicology may need a formal theoretical training best taught at University. Performing, Crafting or Composing? Not really convinced
Keep up the art on your own time, and learn a trade that will always be reliable.

Practice.

Sadly, that's about it.

Partially correct. Do those things with the right select degree and it works like a charm. The problem is, way too many degrees are offered and they don't select out the excess.
Degrees that are not in high demand or need, should restrict the amount of students they allow in to those majors. I know it sounds bad, but there are way too many people with social science degrees (like me) who end up having to learn another skill, unless you are lucky (and hardworking and can afford it) and go through with a PhD program and get out and teach.