How could they improve the educational curriculum?

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More likely just spill over from an argument we were having on another thread.

Nutterbug, sorry for participating in this diversion. As far as making schools better for Aspies, I stand by the social skills training. Also, classes in basic life skills would be helpful to some.

You should instruct all students as if they will decide their own lives. If they change their minds, then they can catch up *anyway* it is not as if there is no means for them to catch up, in fact, they would likely have to be retaught these subjects anyway as usually that which is unused will be forgotten. In any case, I am not talking about putting students on "tracks" I am talking about expanding the number of elective courses that students can take and increasing the flexibility of the system, allowing them to specialize as they please and pick courses based upon what they consider most useful. In any case, the honors class systems that many schools already possess and the acquisition of high school credit in middle school already shove kids down, and in the case of the latter, sometimes due to factors they might have little control over. I am not saying that foreign languages should be a requirement. Our schools aren't "too dumb" our schools are too wasteful, and I want our schools to work towards something useful. They *don't* have to, but a number of them *will*, and there is no reason to prepare someone for a path they will *never* take, and even if they take it years later, such training won't be *that* helpful as it would be forgotten.

Partially so, but I don't think that high schools can really do a lot to prepare students with the survival skills that they'd need, as part of it really isn't a skill but an attitude that students often do not have, and schools can only go so far. A major part of this matter, as must be obvious to you, is the behavior of parents, and the kind of behavior that shields kids too much has actually been increasingly common in recent years, a trend that has been noted by educators and psychologists. No, professors won't do that. They don't teach checkbooking, bill paying, or things like that in high school, and I think that a practical finance class would be a perfect thing for a high school to offer students, as it can on top of that show the advantages to saving and how it can improve one's long-term life quality.


I wouldn't have. I prefer going my own path, but a number of aspies would go for it.


Umm.... right... because I am *so* completely ignorant. If I am ignorant, separate where my failures are expressions of poor analysis vs unliked recommendation, as the 2 are different. As well, the drop-out rate was highlighted by Dr. Charles Murray in a WSJ 3-article series on education a few years back where he argued that a significant issue in college education was IQ which is going to be limited with marginal people being better suited to trades(which are currently de-emphasized by the current educational ideology). Not only that, but to be honest, from the research I've read on the matter, the SAT has proven to be a better predictor of college success than high school GPAs(although SATs are disliked due to their nature, I also don't have a link off-hand), and this is odd because SATs are less related to having the skills you indicate as they are to having talent. This is not to say that SAT is a perfect measure, in fact, part of the issue with high school GPA is the heterogeneity of high schools in the US.

In any case, to reiterate, I don't see a single issue where you caught me on ignorance so much as expressed a dislike of my judgment on a matter, and the 2 are not the same, as one can have access to the same studies and make markedly different policy conclusions. But of course, if I am wrong on some detail, I am sure you can muster some fact that can build your case.

That pretty much sums up the entire American educational experience, in my opinion.

I teach high school. I have assistant taught college. I taught elementary school

you read studies... I read studies and then go live it.

I talk to boards that want to dumb down curriculum so more students can pass. I deal with NCLB. I battle with administration that removes prerequisite content material from Algebra 1 text that the students need to know to pass Algebra 2. I argue with principals who allow English teachers choose and purchase Mathematics curriculum. I see elementary students learn Japanese and then go apply that knowledge to learning English. I tutor college students who left home full of home only to land at college where they are expected to be an adult and yet have never been instructed how to survive on their own. I get frustrated over crappy teachers who design high school math curriculum around an elementary math curriculum set up and then claim it makes students MORE prepared for college. I go insane when an AP Calculus class covers less than 1/2 of the material of a college level Calculus course and it lasts twice as long.

and you... you read studies.

nice.

The above post is what I call...

PWNAGE!!

But seriously Shiggily, AG will continue this argument until you give up. Unless you're feeling a masochistic urge to verify that fact, I advise you drop the matter. He can and will take this thread to twenty pages or more if you push him.

Ok.


Ok. And a lot of everything you say is completely unrelated to the topic at hand, as nobody has been talking about watering down classes. The only thing even closely related was the matter of elementary students, and even in that case, my point isn't entirely blunted as there is no reason to uniformly teach Japanese across an entire nation, but rather there is room to tailor such a curriculum to the desires of the relevant community.

Yes, it really is nice. In any case you don't have a position. I mean, if we put your argument into a logical framework, here's what it is:

1. A makes claim B;
2. there is something positive about A,
3. therefore claim B is true.

You just happen to be A. That's all. But the argument is the appeal to authority, a classical fallacy in syllogistic logic, with the matters of comparison of backgrounds actually being an ad hominem fallacy as you try to argue that based upon a certain characteristic of mine, my position is *less* valid. Now, of course, this does not mean that your positions are wrong, but your argument isn't valid for anything at all. It might convince some rube of something, but unless you want to prove that the education system is a failure based upon your own inability to understand proper argumentaton(or perhaps your dishonesty as a person), and your position as a teacher, then I would advise that you actually engage in something legitimate rather than engage in rhetorical masturbation.


No, I call it a dishonest argument. Let's look at the structure of it. Basically, here is how it is framed:

1. A makes claim B;
2. there is something positive about A,
3. therefore claim B is true.

In this case, Shiggily is A. B is her position. She has experience, therefore her claim, B, is true. This is logically fallacious. The fact that you call this "pwnage" merely shows your own failings at argumentation, Orwell, as it shows that you cannot distinguish between rhetoric and good argumentation. If rhetoric is "pwnage" then there is no need for studies, there is no need for logic, there is no need for an education system, just a mass of inspirational speakers to build confidence, and, Orwell, such is absurd.

[quote="Awesomelyglorious"]
Ok. And a lot of everything you say is completely unrelated to the topic at hand, as nobody has been talking about watering down classes. The only thing even closely related was the matter of elementary students, and even in that case, my point isn't entirely blunted as there is no reason to uniformly teach Japanese across an entire nation, but rather there is room to tailor such a curriculum to the desires of the relevant community.
[quote]

the point that you missed is that children who are taught a foreign language at a young age apply the techniques to other areas of study. You hear Japanese and assume that I am advocating forcing all children to learn Japanese when I am not. Any language would do. It is the principles of adjusting to foreign syntax, vocabulary, sentence structure, and the requirements of using them daily for retention that students need to learn. There is a joke... what do you call a person who speaks multiple languages?.... multilingual. What do you call a person who speaks two languages?.... bilingual. What do you call a person who speaks only one language?

...American.

But since you demand studies about the benefits of teaching foreign language to elementary students I will oblige. I hope you have access to peer-reviewed journals.

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom ... o=ED206188

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom ... o=ED205037

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom ... o=ED218966

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom ... o=ED402794

that is just foreign language for elementary schools. If you want more I suggest subscribing to eric.ed.gov or a number of peer-reviewed journals, article databases (ebscohost, proquest, or thompson gale) or perhaps if you are lazy there is google scholar.

Though I vocally argue for more variety in content classes such as more applied/practical math choices. I also believe in equal college and career preparation and one should assume that a student may choose either and should be prepared for both.
And here are links for arguments for tougher more rigorous high schools... or in the words of my Russian Number Theory and Cryptography professor (said to a group of 4th year college students) "five year olds in Russia know more math than you."

http://proquest.umi.com.ezproxy.apollol ... ntId=13118

http://find.galegroup.com.ezproxy.apoll ... e(en%2C%2C)%3AFQE%3D(KE%2CNone%2C20)tougher+high+schools%24&sgHitCountType=None&inPS=true&sort=DateDescend&searchType=BasicSearchForm&tabID=T002&prodId=IPS&searchId=R3&currentPosition=2&userGroupName=apollo&docId=A153899403&docType=IAC&contentSet=IAC-Documents

This one states that "61.1 percent of entering community college students need some kind of remedial education" hmmm they also advocate teaching real-world applicable skills in community college and not in high school.

http://proquest.umi.com.ezproxy.apollol ... ntId=13118

Here are a few more
http://web.ebscohost.com.ezproxy.apollo ... N=34039631

http://web.ebscohost.com.ezproxy.apollo ... N=34587282

http://web.ebscohost.com.ezproxy.apollo ... N=31940595

http://find.galegroup.com.ezproxy.apoll ... e(en%2C%2C)%3AFQE%3D(K0%2CNone%2C20)tougher+high+schools%24&sgHitCountType=None&inPS=true&sort=DateDescend&searchType=BasicSearchForm&tabID=T002&prodId=IPS&searchId=R6&currentPosition=3&userGroupName=apollo&docId=A131199111&docType=IAC&contentSet=IAC-Documents

http://find.galegroup.com.ezproxy.apoll ... e(en%2C%2C)%3AFQE%3D(K0%2CNone%2C20)tougher+high+schools%24&sgHitCountType=None&inPS=true&sort=DateDescend&searchType=BasicSearchForm&tabID=T002&prodId=IPS&searchId=R6&currentPosition=4&userGroupName=apollo&docId=A132852656&docType=IAC&contentSet=IAC-Documents

As for the argument that high school does not prepare students for college, and that is why students drop out from college... This one states that "a simple instrument was developed to identify potential student low performance and withdrawal. It was based on a measure of students' early expectation of higher education, matched subsequently with their actual experience."

http://proquest.umi.com.ezproxy.apollol ... ntId=13118

This one states that "satisfaction of student expectations plays a substantial role in student departure"

http://proquest.umi.com.ezproxy.apollol ... ntId=13118

I also disagree that dropouts are students who cannot learn and should just find a career and not go to college. Fascinatingly enough here are articles on the dropout rates of gifted students. "Results do reveal that these high-scoring, lower-income children test less well as grade level increases and they are more likely to drop out and not complete college than medium-income students."

http://web.ebscohost.com.ezproxy.apollo ... N=26898161

http://web.ebscohost.com.ezproxy.apollo ... N=25690971

http://web.ebscohost.com.ezproxy.apollo ... N=21934696

I await your list of peer-reviewed journal articles supporting your argument.

Last edited by Shiggily on 22 Dec 2008, 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Shiggily, I will give you this warning. Whether you are right or wrong is immaterial, AG will win the argument. You are setting yourself up for a long, long flamewar.

By the way AG, you've expanded beyond PPR. That's new.

nothing I haven't dealt with before. I don't argue to change his viewpoints. I argue to provide the truth to other people who are reading this.



?

Make college free, like Europe (or make at least a quarter of the public university seats free). That way, like in Europe, students study really, really hard. They know that they will get a college degree if they make the cutoff.

Italy and Germany are having serious issues with their colleges.

Ok, to be honest, I haven't really put that much in terms of argumentation into the matter of multilingualism, mostly, my argument was against Orwell in promoting all high school students to learn Calculus. In any case, I really don't have a concern about the joke, there are many monolingual Americans who do just fine.

Right, I don't think that this was part of the debate, and to be honest, the only thing I've seen you do as part of a debate, is to call me extremely ignorant, and then to invoke an argument from authority onto me. In any case, raw data on improvements based upon teaching elementary school students a foreign language, really has little to do with anything I've stated. Your original comment that I responded to had *nothing* about that, and so this response is irrelevant for that reason.


And I see that as a clear waste, not all students will be going the same path, nor will they really even be irredeemably damaged for bad assessments at one point in their high school career.


Ok, there may be 5-year olds in Russia who know more math, but that is not a concern. The issue is comparing like with like, and teaching to utility rather than teaching for the sake of nothing. To be honest, I am a fan of offering tough classes for students who want to succeed, or even allowing them to graduate early, or dual-enroll somewhere, or a lot of measures along those lines, but these measures must be matched to prospective returns, otherwise we are wasting people's time and resources.


And I disagree with them, but I am not going to read a link as if that is *your* argument. I really don't care what a link says, not only that, but I don't have direct access to peer-reviewed journals at my current location. In any case, advocating a stance is normative science, and the statistic is positive science, they are clearly different.


And I already stated that SATs were a good predictor of college success, which is going to stand somewhat against these matters(in any case, expectations are not something as easy to test by colleges). In any case, the proportion of students entering college is relatively high, which is also somewhat of an issue in regards to this.


Umm.... let's see, your statement is a misrepresentation of my argument, and thus you are attacking a strawman. Unless you are going to argue that every drop out does so due to poverty, this is just irrelevant, not only that, but part of this argument that students should go focus on career does not have anything to do with the idea that they could *possibly* go to college, but rather has everything to do with the fact that college is a waste of time, and that argument is not even one about changes in monetary outcomes based upon college graduation, but rather the disconnect between what one learns in college and what one does in the work force.

Shiggily, your tactic is nothing but dishonesty. You are still continuing an argument from authority, because let's just face it. You aren't making your own argument, you are *still* saying:

1. A makes claim B;
2. there is something positive about A,
3. therefore claim B is true.

In any case, this isn't a matter of "peer-reviewed studies", but rather a lot of it really comes down to positive and normative analysis. Most of the facts you provide are irrelevant to our argument. Thus, a laundry list of peer-reviewed studies does nothing but waste time and effort.

I don't actually think that Shiggily has much of a developed position. Here's all she has done, she has called me ignorant, she proclaimed her superiority, and then she has given a laundry list of studies with questionable relevance to what I was saying about increasing flexibility. The only thing she has said that is relevant is this: "I also believe in equal college and career preparation" as I was arguing for self/parent-selected specialization.

Yeah.... well.... it might not be something that would exist for long, I mostly came because you said something about this in PPR. In any case, I mostly can't stand non-PPR people.

I suspected as much. Note to self: don't refer to outside threads in PPR.

Nutterbug, I apologize again for bringing about the destruction of your thread.

Right.... everyone provides "the truth" (TM) to other people. And there are different perspectives on the truth, and amongst knowledgeable people there always seem to be disputes on proper actions regarding a certain set of facts.

AG, by now you are not addressing the issues but rather your opponent's arguments. That's not really how it works outside PPR, and it doesn't convince anyone that you're right.