Board index › Coping in life › School and College Life

Getting really tired of the Humanities Vs. STEM stuff..

Page 3 of 6 [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Ancalagon
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,302

09 Mar 2013, 2:59 pm

DVCal wrote:
but it isn't good when students are taking remedial course work like "College Algebra"

In general, all you're doing is trolling his thread and trying to make him feel bad, but this one bit I can agree with.

However, should the blame fall on the students? Some of them are just lazy, sure, but math instruction in high schools is frequently pretty bad, and you're ignoring the existence of dyscalculia. Dyscalculia is a disorder of the ability to do math, sometimes a developmental disorder, sometimes a result of a brain injury. I don't know if rabbittss has dyscalculia (although what he described sounds very much like it), but if he does, you're doing the equivalent of making fun of a blind man for not just opening his eyes and looking. After all, when you want to see something, all you do is open your eyes and look, how shameful that the blind man refuses to do something so easy. And those autistics, who just refuse to act like a normal person, and those deaf people who just won't listen...

You owe rabbittss an apology. I doubt he will get it, since in my experience jerks don't apologize, but he deserves an apology nonetheless.


_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton


DVCal
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Apr 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 636

09 Mar 2013, 4:29 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
DVCal wrote:
but it isn't good when students are taking remedial course work like "College Algebra"

In general, all you're doing is trolling his thread and trying to make him feel bad, but this one bit I can agree with.

However, should the blame fall on the students? Some of them are just lazy, sure, but math instruction in high schools is frequently pretty bad, and you're ignoring the existence of dyscalculia. Dyscalculia is a disorder of the ability to do math, sometimes a developmental disorder, sometimes a result of a brain injury. I don't know if rabbittss has dyscalculia (although what he described sounds very much like it), but if he does, you're doing the equivalent of making fun of a blind man for not just opening his eyes and looking. After all, when you want to see something, all you do is open your eyes and look, how shameful that the blind man refuses to do something so easy. And those autistics, who just refuse to act like a normal person, and those deaf people who just won't listen...

You owe rabbittss an apology. I doubt he will get it, since in my experience jerks don't apologize, but he deserves an apology nonetheless.


I am not trolling this thread, I am just someone who sees far too many people like rabbittss who graduated High School without a proper understanding of high school level math, and I do not place the blame on rabbittss, but his attitude that it wasn't important to know such mathematics, is poor. If he does or doesn't have dyscalculia, that doesn't excuse the millions of others each year who have graduated high school who lack such basic knowledge in mathematics.

As a graduate from a so called "STEM" major I say this, all high school graduate should at the least have a basic understanding of Precalculus, and all College graduates should know some basic Calculus.



Ancalagon
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Dec 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,302

09 Mar 2013, 6:11 pm

DVCal wrote:
that doesn't excuse the millions of others each year who have graduated high school who lack such basic knowledge in mathematics.

Again, you're placing blame on students without giving consideration to whether this is where the blame lies.

Quote:
As a graduate from a so called "STEM" major I say this, all high school graduate should at the least have a basic understanding of Precalculus, and all College graduates should know some basic Calculus.

Graduating from a STEM major does not qualify you to say what is reasonable for a high school or college graduate to know. High schools and colleges generally disagree with your assessment. More importantly, you don't say *why* you think these requirements should hold. Let's make this concrete: what use would "precalculus" (quotes because this is the name of a course, not the name of a subject) or calculus be to a high school history teacher?


_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton


Janissy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 May 2009
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,450
Location: x

10 Mar 2013, 5:14 pm

DVCal wrote:
[all College graduates should know some basic Calculus.


There is no reason for all college graduates to know some basic calculus. Calculus is foundational knowledge for a few professions. But outside those few professions, people will never use it nor will knowing it enhance the other skills they actually will use. I failed Calculus twice, ultimately graduating college without knowing any basic Calculus (despite my attempts). This has had zero impact on my professional life. It's just not necessary knowledge for most college graduates. But the ability to write term papers that I was forced to acquire has served me well for decades even though I have never written a term paper since. Being forced to learn how to do that gave me the ability to breeze through the shorter forms of writing that I have done quite a lot ever since. The Calculus? Never. Useless. I wish I had never even attempted to take it and instead had spent those two semesters learning something- anything- else.



rabbittss
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Dec 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,348

10 Mar 2013, 5:58 pm

Janissy wrote:
DVCal wrote:
[all College graduates should know some basic Calculus.


There is no reason for all college graduates to know some basic calculus. Calculus is foundational knowledge for a few professions. But outside those few professions, people will never use it nor will knowing it enhance the other skills they actually will use. I failed Calculus twice, ultimately graduating college without knowing any basic Calculus (despite my attempts). This has had zero impact on my professional life. It's just not necessary knowledge for most college graduates. But the ability to write term papers that I was forced to acquire has served me well for decades even though I have never written a term paper since. Being forced to learn how to do that gave me the ability to breeze through the shorter forms of writing that I have done quite a lot ever since. The Calculus? Never. Useless. I wish I had never even attempted to take it and instead had spent those two semesters learning something- anything- else.


Thanks Ancalagon for explaining all of that way better than I could.

Also, Janissy, yes, that's exactly it, if I wanted to use up more of my Elective slots to take higher level math classes Ultimately I would be doing myself a disservice in so doing. As a history & archeology major It would be much better for me to take more English classes (thus more term paper practice) or technical writing, or art history or just about ANYTHING other than math/engineering/medical classes. I'd still like to take some GIS classes, but I'm afraid that's going to have to wait for another degree at a later date. I'd be much better served trying to get on as a land surveyor's apprentice and pick up what I need that way.



uwmonkdm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2013
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 764
Location: Canada

11 Mar 2013, 2:55 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyowJZxrtbg[/youtube]



rabbittss
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Dec 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,348

11 Mar 2013, 3:24 am

Yeah basically that's the kind of stuff that was in my "Math modelling" class.

It makes a very good amount of sense but that basically the main issue is I can already find patterns in data and deduce (hypothesize) why those things are the way they are and look for possible reasons, or causations for them.

It's the same reason why Public speaking has become such a big thing in US college curriculum.. the Syllogism.. is effectively that A+B=C therefore C-A=B formula but presented in a way which people who aren't particularly interested in math will get it.

The problem there being that when I'm placed in front of a class room full of 19 years olds I tend to pass out. I had effectively learned and internalized all the lessons from my public speaking class LONG before I had to give my first speech.. but I still had to withdraw from the class cause after I passed out and came too when the school emt came and checked on me.. I had gotten an F for not being "Present" for the speech..

Ultimately the "Mr. Johnson" portion of that video is the single most important part to pay attention to. School's are FILLED with Mr. Johnsons and they teach all subjects. I bet there are just as many Mr. Johnsons responsible for producing people who "Don't like to read" as there are producing people with Math Anxiety, or body image issues cause of Coach Johnson.

I think that being a teacher was often a career path that people were put on, and I know I've been pushed in that direction when I persist in sticking with history.. everyone tells me I need to get a BS in Education and take history as a minor instead... But I'd make a terrible terrible teacher.. I'd be a Mr. Johnson.. and you want to know why I would be a terrible teacher? I'm not interested in helping students come to conclusions on their own.. I just want them to listen to me and accept my word as law (I am the Law!, Respect my Authoritah!, etc) my ENVS teacher is sort of at the 360 mark to the Mr. Johnson's 0 mark. He's soooooo libertarian in his approach to teaching that he can't understand why you don't come to his class already knowing the stuff he's not teaching.



uwmonkdm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2013
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 764
Location: Canada

11 Mar 2013, 3:33 am

rabbittss wrote:
Yeah basically that's the kind of stuff that was in my "Math modelling" class.

It makes a very good amount of sense but that basically the main issue is I can already find patterns in data and deduce (hypothesize) why those things are the way they are and look for possible reasons, or causations for them.

It's the same reason why Public speaking has become such a big thing in US college curriculum.. the Syllogism.. is effectively that A+B=C therefore C-A=B formula but presented in a way which people who aren't particularly interested in math will get it.

The problem there being that when I'm placed in front of a class room full of 19 years olds I tend to pass out. I had effectively learned and internalized all the lessons from my public speaking class LONG before I had to give my first speech.. but I still had to withdraw from the class cause after I passed out and came too when the school emt came and checked on me.. I had gotten an F for not being "Present" for the speech..

Ultimately the "Mr. Johnson" portion of that video is the single most important part to pay attention to. School's are FILLED with Mr. Johnsons and they teach all subjects. I bet there are just as many Mr. Johnsons responsible for producing people who "Don't like to read" as there are producing people with Math Anxiety, or body image issues cause of Coach Johnson.

I think that being a teacher was often a career path that people were put on, and I know I've been pushed in that direction when I persist in sticking with history.. everyone tells me I need to get a BS in Education and take history as a minor instead... But I'd make a terrible terrible teacher.. I'd be a Mr. Johnson.. and you want to know why I would be a terrible teacher? I'm not interested in helping students come to conclusions on their own.. I just want them to listen to me and accept my word as law (I am the Law!, Respect my Authoritah!, etc) my ENVS teacher is sort of at the 360 mark to the Mr. Johnson's 0 mark. He's soooooo libertarian in his approach to teaching that he can't understand why you don't come to his class already knowing the stuff he's not teaching.


I think you mean your teacher is a complete 180 to Mr Johnson... math is certainly not your strong suit!
I totally agree, and here's another video that you will probably like.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M4tdMsg3ts[/youtube]



rabbittss
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Dec 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,348

11 Mar 2013, 3:50 am

I understood that 90 degrees was a radii, a Diameter was 180 or a straight line bisecting a circle into two equal hemispheres, and 360 was the circumference of the circle.



Think of it this way.. if you put two protractors flat edge to flat edge... you get 360 degrees total.. each protractor being 180 degrees.. or half the circumference of a circle.

I'm familiar with the phrase "a complete 180" but I feel that that is given to mean you are only looking at half the picture due to a 360 being effectively being the same position as a 0.. in terms of political science this would be either total anarchy (regardless of it thats social or economic anarchy) or Totalitarianism (regardless of if thats rightist or leftist total control).. Those two positions should ultimately be right next to each other since when you get down to the real nuts and bolts of it they are exactly the same.



uwmonkdm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2013
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 764
Location: Canada

11 Mar 2013, 3:58 am

rabbittss wrote:
I understood that 90 degrees was a radii, a Diameter was 180 or a straight line bisecting a circle into two equal hemispheres, and 360 was the circumference of the circle.

Think of it this way.. if you put two protractors flat edge to flat edge... you get 360 degrees total.. each protractor being 180 degrees.. or half the circumference of a circle.

I'm familiar with the phrase "a complete 180" but I feel that that is given to mean you are only looking at half the picture due to a 360 being effectively being the same position as a 0.. in terms of political science this would be either total anarchy (regardless of it thats social or economic anarchy) or Totalitarianism (regardless of if thats rightist or leftist total control).. Those two positions should ultimately be right next to each other since when you get down to the real nuts and bolts of it they are exactly the same.


I think you're over-complicating the simple fact that when you turn 180 degrees, you're facing the opposite direction... and if you turn 360 degrees you're facing the same direction.
It's more of a rotational look at degrees, than a translational look..
I don't understand your political analogy, I don't think politics and math mix too well :shrug:



rabbittss
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Dec 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,348

11 Mar 2013, 4:09 am

uwmonkdm wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
I understood that 90 degrees was a radii, a Diameter was 180 or a straight line bisecting a circle into two equal hemispheres, and 360 was the circumference of the circle.

Think of it this way.. if you put two protractors flat edge to flat edge... you get 360 degrees total.. each protractor being 180 degrees.. or half the circumference of a circle.

I'm familiar with the phrase "a complete 180" but I feel that that is given to mean you are only looking at half the picture due to a 360 being effectively being the same position as a 0.. in terms of political science this would be either total anarchy (regardless of it thats social or economic anarchy) or Totalitarianism (regardless of if thats rightist or leftist total control).. Those two positions should ultimately be right next to each other since when you get down to the real nuts and bolts of it they are exactly the same.


I think you're over-complicating the simple fact that when you turn 180 degrees, you're facing the opposite direction... and if you turn 360 degrees you're facing the same direction.
It's more of a rotational look at degrees, than a translational look..
I don't understand your political analogy, I don't think politics and math mix too well :shrug:


When Politics and Math meet.. we usually get Economics.

I find the idea of stopping at 180 to be arbitrary.. which probably says a lot about the reason why I have so much trouble with algebra.. which seems to be primarily about finding straight lines.. or else parabolas which are defined by the straight lines you used to find them.



uwmonkdm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2013
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 764
Location: Canada

11 Mar 2013, 5:39 am

rabbittss wrote:
uwmonkdm wrote:
rabbittss wrote:
I understood that 90 degrees was a radii, a Diameter was 180 or a straight line bisecting a circle into two equal hemispheres, and 360 was the circumference of the circle.

Think of it this way.. if you put two protractors flat edge to flat edge... you get 360 degrees total.. each protractor being 180 degrees.. or half the circumference of a circle.

I'm familiar with the phrase "a complete 180" but I feel that that is given to mean you are only looking at half the picture due to a 360 being effectively being the same position as a 0.. in terms of political science this would be either total anarchy (regardless of it thats social or economic anarchy) or Totalitarianism (regardless of if thats rightist or leftist total control).. Those two positions should ultimately be right next to each other since when you get down to the real nuts and bolts of it they are exactly the same.


I think you're over-complicating the simple fact that when you turn 180 degrees, you're facing the opposite direction... and if you turn 360 degrees you're facing the same direction.
It's more of a rotational look at degrees, than a translational look..
I don't understand your political analogy, I don't think politics and math mix too well :shrug:


When Politics and Math meet.. we usually get Economics.
Yea. my point exactly, they don't mix too well.

Quote:
I find the idea of stopping at 180 to be arbitrary.. which probably says a lot about the reason why I have so much trouble with algebra.. which seems to be primarily about finding straight lines.. or else parabolas which are defined by the straight lines you used to find them.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Algebra has nothing to do with lines, and parabolas are derived from slices of a cone...



DVCal
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Apr 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 636

11 Mar 2013, 10:49 am

Janissy wrote:
DVCal wrote:
[all College graduates should know some basic Calculus.


There is no reason for all college graduates to know some basic calculus. Calculus is foundational knowledge for a few professions. But outside those few professions, people will never use it nor will knowing it enhance the other skills they actually will use. I failed Calculus twice, ultimately graduating college without knowing any basic Calculus (despite my attempts). This has had zero impact on my professional life. It's juppost not necessary knowledge for most college graduates. But the ability to write term papers that I was forced to acquire has served me well for decades even though I have never written a term paper since. Being forced to learn how to do that gave me the ability to breeze through the shorter forms of writing that I have done quite a lot ever since. The Calculus? Never. Useless. I wish I had never even attempted to take it and instead had spent those two semesters learning something- anything- else.


Even you think college students shouldn't need to know basic calculus to graduate, that doesn't excuse the fact that no college student should be taking sophomore level high school class such as "College Algebra" for credit. Most high school students are suppose to learn this material in their Sophomore year of high school, I mean serious what happen, did they never actually learn it. Did they forget it all some how. Is it just a bunch of bad students, or is it a bunch of bad teachers.



fueledbycoffee
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 566
Location: Baltimore

11 Mar 2013, 11:49 am

DVCal wrote:
Even you think college students shouldn't need to know basic calculus to graduate, that doesn't excuse the fact that no college student should be taking sophomore level high school class such as "College Algebra" for credit. Most high school students are suppose to learn this material in their Sophomore year of high school, I mean serious what happen, did they never actually learn it. Did they forget it all some how. Is it just a bunch of bad students, or is it a bunch of bad teachers.


Well, let's look at all of those. Some of us screwed up in school. Some of us did not do well, especially at math. That's our fault. At the same time, some of us did amazing at other subjects. Some of us were brilliant at art, or good at english, or skilled at languages. People have different talents. There will always be a spectrum of ability and differing talents among students, and the denial of that fact is largely why standardized education is a failed concept. Then there's the fact that 60% is passing. Easy enough to fake your way through, with no understanding of the subject. That's the system. And they teach us on the calculator, so while I can plug in an equation and get the right answer, to this day I'm still trying to wrap my head around FOIL.

There's also the fact that some of us, whether by necessity or inclination, pass a great deal of time between high school and college. I was out for almost a decade. Math is a language, and if there is a single rule that applies to every language ever conceived, it's "use it or lose it".

And while I may not have been a great student, allow me to give you a glimpse at who was teaching me: I, the worst student in my class, had to teach my teacher how to multiply matrices by hand, because she was convinced that it was impossible.

So to answer your question, it's the whole shebang. The entire system.

Then there's practicality. We need doctors. We need administrators. We need scientists. We need all sorts of careers to be filled that require math. It is far, far easier to go into a field like history or art. Why would a student, who is most likely just interested in getting a steady job and getting on with their lives, put forward the extra effort to learn math when they could go into another field, just as if not more lucrative, if the math was not offered for credit, and might I add, when they still have to pay a huge chunk of change for it? That credit is incentive, like it or not.



rabbittss
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 29 Dec 2011
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,348

11 Mar 2013, 12:02 pm

uwmonkdm wrote:
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Algebra has nothing to do with lines, and parabolas are derived from slices of a cone...



And see, I'm trying to repeat exactly the kind of stuff they taught us in the class. This is how it all comes out to me. All I remember is endlessly doing pointless excercises to try and find points on a graph that then were lines... and sometimes were curved lines.. just over and over and over and over...


and 90% of the time you could draw a line ANYWHERE on the graph and still get the answer right.. just as often as if you drew the line exactly where the points were you got it wrong.. and that kind of thing I just don't understand.. they also never showed us how to put an equation into our VERY expensive Ti84's and I still to this day don't really know how to use it to solve "College algebra" problems.. but I can use it's stats functions very well.



fueledbycoffee
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 566
Location: Baltimore

11 Mar 2013, 12:19 pm

Algebra does actually have to do with lines, but the lines are just a tool. The entire point of a sloped line is to represent the relationship between the variables. Say, I get paid a certain wage per hour. For every hour that passes, my total amount of money earned increases by that amount. If my wage is 9$ an hour, and X is the number of hours worked, and Y is my total earnings, then that equation could be represented by Y=9X. It is also represented as a line that increases by 9 for every 1 hour, a slope of 9/1, or 9. It's the same thing, a different way of representing the same concept. That's what the lines you were shown are.

The curved lines are exponential. This means that the slope, the rate of increase of the line, changes. So in that previous example, Y = 9 times the hours worked (1 hour, then Y = 9; 2 hours, then Y = 18, etc.), in an exponential equation, say Y = X Squared, then Y is equal to X times itself. So if X = 2, then Y = 4 (2x2). If X = 4, then Y = 16 (4x4). Because the slope is changing with each one, that gives the line a curved appearance.

Basically, that's simple algebra. I'm not sure if that helps or just confuses you more, but trust me, man, I feel you. Most of the time in my precalc class I'm banging my head on the desk because I have no idea what's going on.