Getting really tired of the Humanities Vs. STEM stuff..

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It's no more arbitrary or complicated than your system, although it is more informative. It tells you how many hours per week you are in a classroom for a semester. How many hours per week are you in class for a 0.50 credit class? I have no idea. How many hours are you in class for a 3 credit hour class? Three.

If you're going to claim metric-style superiority, you really ought to measure in units of 1, not 1/2 or 1/4.


Where did you get this idea?

Last edited by Ancalagon on 12 Mar 2013, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You're way too focused on "levels". There is really very little difference between high school senior "level" and freshman college "level".


Actually, they're very similar. They're freshman level courses that can be tested out of.


Mine offers credit not only for College Algebra, but for Intermediate Algebra as well. Do you have any actual evidence for this dubious statement?


There has been a high schooler attending several of the upper-level college math classes that I've been taking. Should I conclude that she's bright, or should I start arbitrarily classifying Galois Theory as high school math?


They let you test out of it because if you know the material, there's no point in making you take the class. At my school, they do not give you credit for having taken it in high school, they let you out of it if you test out.


BS. I tested out of English Composition.


I'll let you get back to "not trolling".

See, that's just it, I have completed my math requirements by taking statistics this semester. But DVCal is moaning that he feels it's wrong that I'm even allowed in school since I can't do calculus.

as to the other thing I take 12-15 "Credit Hours" per semester I'd take more but i'm limited by what my campus offers during a given semester. When I get to my 4 year school I'll probably take 15 hours as a standard thing. Basically it means that I spend 3 hours in class per week listening to lectures, and then have around 30+ hours of home work/study per week depending on the week. Right now I'm taking 13 hours, but 1 of those is a lab and so is still 3 hours. So I actually am spending about 27 hours a week at school, and another 30 a week doing homework/studying.

That's another thing too, almost every state in the US has it's own 'Board of regents" which is responsible for setting curricula standards and maintaining satisfactory levels to keep accreditation.. I could have taken CLEP tests and gotten out of.. well.. almost everything except the Math stuff.. But those don't Transfer from school to school, and since the 2 year school I'm at, doesn't offer everything I need at the campus near me, I had no chance of trying to graduate from their school so I opted to take the classes rather than take the CLEP tests and exempt the classes like English Composition.

I do have to say, I really love how so many people in this thread are acting as if they are some how smarter than everyone else, or specifically smarter than me. I'm in the PTK, I take Honours Classes, I get A's on basically EVERYTHING.. I show up for all my classes.. it's not like I'm sitting at the cafe having a beer and slacking off. I never missed a day of any of my Math classes, I turned in every scrap of homework, every scrap of extra credit, and took every opportunity to get extra help.. Ancalagon helped me a good bit on here even! and I STILL BARELY PASSED them.. because I simply don't understand it. No amount of explaining helps, because when I look at it it just doesn't make sense to me.

BS on what you wrote. The only way to get out of english comp is to pass the IB or AP exam in english. The example is beyond rediculous as yours is exeption, while mine is the standard highschool curriculum.. I had a valid complaint and you are the one trolling, with your BS example.

Last edited by DVCal on 12 Mar 2013, 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I didn't say you should be allowed in school, I said it was sad how so many students take college algebra, given the material in it is required by most high schools to graduate.

You know I am done with this thread, but talk to any college math professor and they will say the same thing I did, too many high school students graduate who must take high school level math courses in college. You people in this thread are part of the problem.

Then the solution is to stop requiring people to take "Highschool level math classes" for majors which don't need them...

Calculus is the easiest branch of higher mathematics.. I don't see it as a problem to make it a requirement.
You learn things like optimization, rates of change... I can think of a few ways that would be useful in real life.

I completely agree, though... university professors' number one complaint is that first years don't know the things they should know.
"College" in Canada isn't the same as "University", it's generally easier things like plumbing, interior design, whatever... so I don't know how the colleges are doing.

But I've noticed through tutoring high school kids and seeing the marks of my fellow students (especially in math classes) - they really have no education out of high school. They had to have 85-90%+ average to get into this program, yet they can't even PASS a first year, first term math course as a Math student... so imagine how much education the other, non-math, students are missing.

The whole system is in the toilet, to be honest. The only reason I'm going to University is for a PhD. If you're not going for some kind of trade that requires specific training/certification (nurse, electrician or something), then you're wasting your time if you won't come out of it with a PhD... In some cases I'd argue you're still wasting your time

Actually, considering that you're increasingly required to have a bachelor's to even work (at least in the US), everyone needs to go for at least a BA. They just need to change the system up a bit. Specialize the program.

I see and understand your argument, but according to it, what would be left of the things you learn at school? So no math because so many people never need math in their jobs again. Art? Never had to paint something in my jobs. Music? No Boss ever wanted that I play a song for him. History? I have never been asked in a job when Napoleon became leader of france. My mother language? So clearly I use it, but I wouldnt have lost any job until now because of not knowing some specific grammar rule or because of not knowing how to structure a speech and so on.

The thing is: Schools are not slaves of companies. Its not their purpose to train little workers for company. Their job is to educate you, to give you the profit of knowledge on itself. Whatever you will need for work you also can learn by working. So therefore no school was needed. But learning is also something you have to learn first. So I agree with you, that special knowledge should be educated, when somebody already knows about his own interests. But until then I dont see whats so bad about getting a basic knowledge in different lessons. The thing is: Without basic knowledge, you dont even have a chance to know, if you are interested in special knowledge. If you never had physics, how you gonna know if its interesting for you? If you never have art in your life, how will you be able to know if you maybe are interested in arts?

One of the poster before said it was all so useless, because Excel would do it anyway for him. I think this is one of the responsible parts, why more and more students have more and more problems with math. Because many teachers only tell you how to achieve a result. Which is complete useless if you dont get teached anymore why on earth you would want that result, what it means, what use I have from an result, and what possibilities are there to achieve it. Because understanding this means that every formula becomes logic to you. Its not anything you have to learn, its something that simply exists because of the problem you want to solve. So from my opinion it should be the opposite solution: Instead of telling people how to achieve a solution with excel ban as much electronic stuff as possible, so that people have the possibilities to understand again, why they are calculating something, not how. The how comes from alone if you understand why.

One thing I am questioning myself, if you dont have any different school possibilities in the USA? So in my country from 10-14 you get basic knowledge. History, Art, Music, physic, chemic, math, second language, .... And with 14 you are allowed to decide what kind of school you want to visit further. As example I had an pre engineer school, so lots of sciences, no music, no art, no third language..... But in the opposite I also could have chosen a school that was more into another direction. So there are sport school where you have about 1/3 of the lessons sport and additional medical lessons and biology (muscles, movements, body structure) and food sciences or an art school with no chemie or physics and instead lots of design and history and graphic stuff and so on. It doesnt mean that you are parting completely, so as example when it comes to a study of architecture later, there are students of pre engineering schools as well, as students from art schools. so everything has its advantage and disadvantage

So dont you have any influence on your own about the lessons you want to learn, when you grow older? The other part that was really shocking me, was that you was forced to sell your school book. I mean this is really weird for me, because it means that you are forced to depend on your math teachers skill. As long as you have the book, you are able to learn everything your teacher maybe couldnt taught you. But if you have a lousy teacher and you are forced to sell your book, what remains for you to achieve knowledge you need? O_o

Just because something is the easiest branch of higher mathematics does not mean it is possible for all college students to learn. There is no purpose in having it be a requirement. It will be useful in real life for people who will need to use it at work. For everybody else it has no use, although they may find it interesting.

I have a rough- very rough- understanding of rates of change. It turns out that this rough understanding is all I need. I don't need to be able to accurately calculate a rate of change. I just need to have a rough concept of whether the rate is speeding up, slowing down or staying the same. I don't even know what optimization is so clearly I never needed that. All Calculus ever did for me was damage an otherwise good GPA and waste an enormous amount of money that I was required to take out as a student loan.

Since a college degree(of any sort) is needed for so many jobs, kids will have to continue to keep getting degrees. Since that is how it is these days, stopping well short of a PhD is not a waste of time. It is mandatory for quite a few jobs. Getting a PhD can even be counter-productive in some cases since it will make employers pass you over for a candidate with lesser degrees on the grounds that those candidates can be paid less and are less likely to quit. "Overqualified" can be damaging for a job that does not require a PhD. I would advise getting a PhD onl;y for those people who will need one for their field (or who want one for personal reasons.) For people who merely want a white collar job, a PhD is overkill and can damage job chances.

I know that math professors will all agree with you. I'm related to one and he told me just that. I used to find it a supreme irony that somebody who has dyscalcula and somebody who is good enough at math to be a mathematician could share DNA. But the more I read about neurology, the more it seems that this peculiarity is predictable rather than an ironic coincidence.

The "problem" of college students needing these math courses in college is not an actual problem anywhere except inside the heads of math professors. It means that students can learn these math concepts at a time in their lives when they are better able to learn them. It means that the college at large gets more tuition money. It also means that math professors must teach classes that they think are beneath them. I don't see that as a problem, although the math professors do.

Yes, my grumpy attitude in this post is the result of endless Thanksgiving/Christmas dinner arguments with said math professor so I've gotten to hear what irks them (him) so much. But I remain unconvinced that there is any actual problem in remedial math classes, nor that there is any true need for a universal knowledge of Calculus for college graduates. I've gone to middle age without a problem that could be solved by this higher math knowledge. So has everybody else I know except those that use it professionally.

That was probably me that was talking about Excel.. basically speaking as a History Major who aims to continue going to school after I've gotten my BA, Excel based graphs are about the only interaction I'll have with Statistics or any mathematics from here on out unless I were to do something completely stupid and mortgage a house.

I understand what you're saying, but that wasn't my point. What I meant it to mean was, if a person goes in for Degree in Mathematics.. why make them take all those English lit classes and History classes? They want to crunch numbers.. let them specialize faster... If I want to be a History Major, don't make me take loads of math classes I'm never going to need to use.. let me specialize faster. The problem being that as far as the US economy is concerned, what you said schools aren't, is exactly what they are expected to be. Diploma mills for Nurse Practitioners, Engineers, science technicians, and financial number crunchers. Thats what all the scholarships are for, that's what all the financial aid is being diverted for, and that's what all the schools are pushing people into, or if the schools aren't then the financial requirements of going to school are doing it.. the problem is as has been said.. a lot of people don't have the knowledge coming out of Highschool to be able to do well in these fields and so they are flunking out with incomplete degrees.. or swapping to Philosophy and taking out 80,000$ in student loans to pay for it.

The USA has essentially decided that we are going to make more Doctors than India and the Phillipines, More Scientists & Engineers than China.. and still do this even though we pay our best and brightest and most mathematically inclined students ludicrous amounts of money to sell their souls and go and work for Wall-Street. If the politicians want to know why we have no Civil Engineers.. all they need to do is look at Wall-Street... Why make 58,000$ a year working in a small municipality as a Civil Engineer.. when you can make 400,000$ a year selling derivatives.

Some countries do specialization earlier though, a Bachelor's Degree equivalent in a lot of countries only takes 3 years to get because they specialize faster. The US school system is mainly geared towards what they call a "Liberal Arts" degree which is basically a "Classical Education" bolted onto a "Trade" They won't teach it using the classical methods.. but they try to teach the same ideas and concepts.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iW_LkYiuTKE[/youtube]

You see this is exactly what I'm talking about.. how dismissive he is of people.. how he claims this problem is so easy.

Yes, it is easy once you've translated all those sigmas, mews, lines, symbols and gibberish into English language. What's more, the problem could be simplified even further... But what made the character in the movie special was that he was able to decipher all that crap that stellan skarsgard had written on the blackboard.. with no formal mathematical training.

And what is even more the textbook I have introducing derivitive pricing basicaly in its hundred pages of glory admits it is a zero sum game. And this is not some minor textbook it is by John C Hull can't remember full title off my head.

The AP exam is a test, and if you pass it, you can get out of english comp. That's what 'testing out' means, taking a test to get out of having to take a class.

I did not take the AP exam, I took the ACT, and given a high enough score on that test my school lets you out of english comp. My school also lets you use the SAT Critical Reading score to get out of english comp.