For the scientists and science grad students here

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One of my first posts here, and I wasn't sure where to put this, because it's science related, but also grad school related.

Forgive me if this has been posted before. I can only find the Google custom search, and it's kind of rudimentary. Me not finding a previous topic on this was not for lack of effort.

To the Aspie scientists here:

Normally I don't really tell people I meet everyday the exact details of my work, just say 'I'm a researcher' and leave it with that. Mostly I fear coming off as a holier-than-thou jerk and making the other person feel like they're low-brow. Here at WP I've noticed there's a MUCH higher population of scientifically minded folks, so I don't really feel like I'm rubbing anything in anyone's face here.

I'm a molecular biologist, PhD'd and employed. I work in a lab on cancer research. Some of you may know what I mean: giant freezers, western blots, cell culture, qPCR, conferences, Sigma-Aldrich, PubMed etc..etc..

Anyway, I seem to be Aspie-light in many categories, with heavy doses of certain other aspects: childhood bully-magnet, opinionated non-filtered mouth, nonexistant small-talk ability, and I'm a regular pro at alienating people, among other not very handy talents.

I've been wondering how the Aspie nerds like me out there deal with certain aspects of the science scene. So I've got a few questions:

#1) Seminar, Public speaking: Do you guys have problems giving seminars? I'm terrible at talking from the hip in everyday conversation. I talk faster than my mouth can keep up, accidentally reverse pronouns all the time, half stutter, and stumble over words. I find that my most important coping strategy, which actually turns me into a rather good public speaker, is to slooooooowwwww doooooowwwwnnnnn the tempo of my sentences. I keep a bottle of water on the podium - it's a free 5 second 'time-out' when you need to gather yourself in the middle of a talk. I treat each slide as an independent entity, so I don't have to be bothered with anticipating what I'm going to say next slide while I'm still talking. Most importantly, if I'm talking at (what I perceive to be) a Treebeard-ish pace, it actually ends up being a normal tempo of speech and gives me plenty of time to get my words straight.... I just have to conciously remember to do such is all.

#1.5) Seminar, Defense: You may be able to get away without giving a seminar under extraordinairy circumstances (I've personally never heard of it). But you're not going to get out of the public defense of a thesis/dissertation. For those who manifest more extreme symptoms of Asperger's, how did you do it or how did you plan on doing it?

#2) Seminar, Eye contact: Do you actually make specific eye contact with members of the audience while you speak? I don't mind eye contact, but I'm a better speaker when I'm not distracted by trying and failing to figure out what a person's eyes are telling me, even in normal conversation. I look over the audience members heads, at the pieces of paper they're playing hangman on while I'm speaking, at their shoes, at empty desks.. whatever. Nobody seems to notice I'm not making eye contact, they probably think I'm looking at the person next to them or something.

#3) Conferences, small-talk and mingling: I HATE this. I can't do it. During the opening reception minglings, I usually just stand in a corner with a beer and count the seconds until I can leave. I'm sure the folks who notice me lurking thus peg me as a wierdo, and it only makes it harder to network at the conference (note I rightfully blame myself for this end result). I love my job, although I'm not particularly passionate about cancer biology. Straight up molecular bio is my thing. I'd much rather be talking about the Yankees, video games, or snowboarding than cancer biology. Maybe once a conference I'll actually get into a conversation with a complete stranger about work. Mostly I just find myself avoiding social interaction with unknowns, sitting in the back for seminars, and quietly leaving to hide in my hotel room when they're done. Has anyone found a way of overcoming this issue? Some sort of coping strategy to mingle and not look like an idiot? I know this is an aspie thing and not necessarily a science thing.

#4) Conferences, the big shake-up: You've been plucked out of your nice secure home and routine. You are then thrown into an entirely new environment and expected to mingle, network, and collaborate with colleagues. I find the first two or three days of a conference to be the toughest. Problem is that by the time I'm getting used to my new routine and the stress from the change is passing, it's time to go back home.

#5) PI, do I tell him/her: I know there is at least one scientist on here whose aspie symptoms are so severe, they couldn't possibly hide it from their advisor. Mine aren't so severe. I just come off as an antisocial curmudgeon or a dick. I never told my graduate school advisor, mostly because he had his own, much more severe, chemical imbalances. Suffice to say, he was a paranoid, sadistic, abusive, manic depressive with delusions of grandeur. I'm glad I have no contact with him as he'd never have understood anyway. (Don't sugar-coat it or anything. )

#6) Labmates/Colleagues, do you tell them?: Has anyone told someone and had it blown up in their face? Gossip is a big problem in my environment. You can't shut some people up. I sum my views on gossip up in four words: Gossip is a poison. You'd expect more out of scientists, but the cliques and exclusionary social maneuvers are still there. My biggest fear is the moment one or two of the gossip whores find out, the entire building finds out. I've got enough of a general shy person/slightly wierd/as*hole (depending on who you talk to) rep already. Albert Einstein said nothing travels faster than the speed of light. He apparently never studied a rumor where I got my degree.

I think you are right not to tell. But I do hope you will come here a lot and maybe even pass on some lectures. Nan, in the ex-DinoAspie Cafe, would dearly like to hear from you. She has a daughter with some odd transpositions on her DNA.

Hi,

I'm a science/technology consultant with several degrees. I've presented at a number of different conferences. I've learned to cope with public speaking in a few different ways. My coping mechanisms include some you use - having a soft drink at the ready to buy myself a few seconds to consider.

One thing you might consider is to take up acting. Seriously. I started acting at the community theatre level several years ago. It was scary (and still is), but I found that the continuous controlled repetition helps me get used to interacting with strangers and large numbers of people. I've learned to look people in the eye as part of the acting. (BTW, I've been in over ten plays/musicals and two movies.)

Regards,

Renaissance

overall:

1) giving talks, don't have a problem. as long as i know what am i talking about i am fine.

2) small talks, mingling at conferences, HATE IT. basically i only attend when i have to. prefer to do just papers and patents. i know it is not best career wise but hey i made even bigger career mistakes (not playing out my connections from the grad school).

3) i even avoid collaborations because i hate to work with people. it is a harder way but i think that is why i end up having better ideas. because i do not go with the flow. if you are just doing an extension of an existing technique, a lot of work is needed to do it better and eventualy nature/science do not like mere extensions but something new.

4) i do not have a DX so i do not have anything to report to pi however i think people know that is something weird with me. the thing is that most productive people in the lab are the quirky ones. yes, unfortunately the mere productivity is not the only parameter in getting on tenure track. my strategy is to go for lower ranking school in exchange for my lack of social skills.

forgot: i am in engineering but overlapping with some bio, cancer. generaly lately i just play wild over a range of areas. my boss is going crazy.

Last edited by AnotherOne on 14 Sep 2009, 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hello, MunkySpunk. Welcome to WP.

I'm just a grad student, and in a "soft" science to boot -- anthropology -- but I've had a few experiences with giving presentations.

Presentations: My most recent experience was having to teach a lab for the first time. The first class was a disaster, at least for me, but the second seemed to go well. One thing I hit on was to turn the lights very low for the Powerpoint part of the presentation, that way I didn't have to see their faces clearly and didn't get thrown off by the expressions I couldn't quite read. I've also found that if I look out over a group at about forehead level, everyone thinks I'm making eye contact with someone in the group.

Telling others: I'm not sure about telling anyone. For one thing, I don't have a formal diagnosis, so there's not really anything to tell. Mostly, I just tell bits as they come up. For instance, I mentioned to some of my classmates that I'm sensitive to fluorescent lighting when I asked if it was okay with them if I turned the lights down in one room. They were very bright and I was having trouble concentrating.

I also had to explain a near-meltdown to one of my officemates last week. I missed an assignment because the syllabus said it wasn't due until Week 8. The professor had sent out an email that I somehow missed seeing that changed the date of the assignment to last week. He told me he didn't really consider the syllabus binding and that it was only there for the benefit of the dean. Fortunately, we didn't get to my article so I've got time to make up the work, but I went to tears over it once I got backt to the office. I told her that I like to have a framework for my classes and that when he removed the framework I felt like I'd just been tossed to the wind but that I would get over it now that I know what's going on. She probably thinks I'm nuts, now.

So, I guess the point is that I'm just explaining things that need explaining as I go along.

Mingling: I still don't get it. It happened again today -- I walked up to a group of my fellow grad students and all conversation stopped dead in the group nearest me when I tried to join in. The rest just ignored me completely. I don't know what they want, but I don't do it properly, I guess. There's a reason I always say I'm better off with people who've been dead for a few thousand years.

Well..... I have had every single experience you have just mentioned. I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. Unfortunately, I don't have much advice on most of it. We just have to do things like go to seminar and ask questions, give talks, present data and updates on our research, teach labs/lectures, go to conferences....blah, blah, blah..... It gets easier, but it never stops being uncomfortable all together. On the subject of eye contact, I have no problem with eye contact while speaking publicly. I hate to speak publicly, but eye contact is no problem. I just look at the back of the room and find a few "targets" and then do the same for the middle and front of the room. No one knows that I am not looking at any people, so it seems like I am a good speaker. When I have to make eye contact one-on-one.... that is another story. I can be really bad if I don't feel comfortable.

On the subject of telling people..... I registered with disability services because I couldn't handle the "common office experience". I just needed someone to advocate me having a separate office space. I didn't require any other services and it was very under cover. They just sent a letter saying they were in possession of documentation supporting the accommodation of a separate office. No one really asked too many questions. The chair wanted some more information, but all they gave was a few blurbs about concentration issues in an environment with competing stimuli..... that was about it. I got my space and no one knew what my deal was. So far as the other stuff.... I really think that most people don't know what sort of internal conflict we are having. At least that is what I hope! I just keep telling myself that "no one knows but me" and it helps.... a little bit.

Good luck with your program. How far in are you? I was into my 3rd year in a PhD program for geology about 6 years ago. I had to leave the program because my mom was dying and I had to help care for her. I have had all of the same experiences you have described because I was doing something very similar. Well, the subject matter is different (geomicrobiology), but the overall experience was similar. Lab work, PI meetings, committee meetings, etc.....

<Lab Pet raises hand> Yes, neurosciences at University (PhD or bust), firstly a chemist. Since I am formerly Dx'd, and my 'difference,' that I am HFA is noticable, others all do know. Being Autistic has given me selective advantages but is also very hard, as you know.

Welcome MunkySpunk and your science research overlaps, somewhat, with my own - Lab Pet is very analytical however. Since speech can be problematic, as you wrote, you could even check out NV Forum in the Haven.

This semester I am on Fellowship Grant....and, unlike any other grad student, taking a 1 credit in comm so I can learn to present. To be nonverbal entirely would be my inclincation but I just cannot. As for your question(s), Lab Pet does not make eye contact. Coordinated groups are all right - shy, but I like to listen to others and try very hard.

For seminar, defense....unknown yet. I do have a MS already but I didn't do the verbal part. However, now, I shall learn 'just the basics' since my presentations are not to be read for me. I use a NEO (facilitated speech device). For me, I focus on the science and cannot worry (aka, panic) about communication. But I have been a TA for Chemistry Lab Session, which is more like show & tell. May seem like a dichotomy that I am/was a TA but the dynamics are different and I'm very very scripted. I know my speech sounds out of cadence (prosody of speech) but to speak takes great effort.

You could watch my video clip, in sig line.

Well. I'm a science graduate student. Giving talks is definitely an issue but not a huge one for me. I get massively stressed every time but they usually end up going well once I get going. I usually just stare straight "through" the audience since I'm always visualizing something in my head as I speak.

My biggest issue is not being able to handle the stress and workload well. I'm an extremely hard worker when I can focus on a single project that I find intellectually stimulating, yet I can't handle being forced to juggle between multiple projects. I get so intensely focused on one thing that it's impossible to switch gears, yet if I try to moderate my focus I lose my motivation. I'm really on and off. I can't work steadily. I also hate distractions and interruptions. Having to TA or attend talks/seminars while I'm working on a major project is pure hell.

I've pretty much decided that I don't want to be a professor. I think I could handle it if it was research and teaching alone. It's the aspect of having to sell myself and acquire grants that would probably do me in. That and being forced to travel and attend conferences constantly would be absolutely exhausting and unrewarding to me.

I'm getting my PhD in Genetics in the spring.

Ugh, I don't do the public speaking bit well at all. When I speak it goes at a good pace, but if I get interrupted at all by people's questions, then I very easily lose my train of thought and start misspeaking. This of course leads to more questions and then it just gets chaotic. It's gotten much better with practice, but even then I still don't think I come across as knowledgeable compared to, say, if someone were to speak to me one on one. I'm vastly more comfortable with just one other person or a very small group of people, and I don't turn into a blathering idiot in these scenarios. There'll be times when I stutter a bit too, and this sucks while I'm giving a talk.

I've been to a few conferences and I don't really schmooze and network with other people; I just listen to the talks and the Q&A session afterwards, but otherwise don't really talk to the others. I just read the abstract book, look at posters, read papers that I've brought along with me, etc..

I've told my PI and the others in lab about AS, but they don't understand it so I think it just ended up getting shoved under the rug and forgotten. This is despite the fact that somebody in the department works on ASD... but in children. My coworkers just know that I'm "quirky" but otherwise don't think much of it. At least that's my impression of it and maybe they just don't tell me what they really think!

StinkyPuppy..... I relate well to the folks just thinking you are quirky. I did not know that I had AS when I was still in my PhD program, but it would have probably done me a lot of good to have known. I panic in large lectures and sometimes flee the room. When I was lecturing and felt like I needed to make a run for it, I would usually just have everyone reference some page and then claim to need an overhead or some other prop. I could generally just calm myself down between my office and the lecture hall (next door to each other more or less). People did think that I was very absent minded, but they had no idea that it was sort of "planned" to cope with my panic issues. When I am deep into thinking about a process, sometimes I forget other things.... like what I am wearing. I have shown up for class in slippers a few times because I left the house reading a paper or contemplating some scenario or solution. Quirky is exactly what most people thought of me! It's not so bad

Thanks everyone for the input, feedback, and suggestions. I'm crafting a response, but I bit off a lot at work today, so I'm pressed for time. Rest assured, I've read it all and will get back.

Some time ago I got my PhD, during that time I had to learn to do public speaking.

I do like the glass of water trick but I have never used it myself, but I keep water to hand in case I want a quick break. The people you are talking to will just think that you as gasping for a drink.

When I am doing public speaking I do not tend to make eye contact with a single person, I tend to look at one person after another, they think that I am making eye contact with them.

I have no great love of "mingling at conferences" but I have to do it sometimes. I tend at some confereances to associate with some old friends of mine. We have some shared interests within the subject. I have to form collaborations to do the type of work which I do, I do my best to make small talk but most of the time I talk about the subject.

PhD student here.

Funny how science is supposedly a highbrow environment - yet most of my fellow students behave like every single negative stereotype about teenagers out there (cliquey, frivolous, profoundly anti-intellectual, gossipy, etc).

I'd never tell my colleagues about AS - being a weirdo is bad enough, they'd just see AS as 'certified lunatic freak.'

I can't do networking to save my life, so I gave up trying ages ago.

I guess one good thing about doing a project I didn't choose, I don't like and isn't working, with a supervisor that I can't stand, in a department where most academics are unfit to organise the proverbial piss-up in a brewery, is that I just don't give a damn anymore about conferences, etc - the only thing I care about is graduating as soon as possible. Here at least thesis defense is just for show (though some of the academics will do their very best to reduce the student to tears), they won't let you submit if you won't pass anyway.

1/2 my dissertation was on class II transposons. I could help with understanding basic mechanics, but I doubt I could be of any help in a clinical sense. Even so, I don't charge for trying to help.
I wish that was an option for me. :/ A project of any significant scope requires skill sets from different people. And anything Nature/Science worthy almost inevitably requires either DaVinci-like elegance, a lightning bolt level idea, or two or more seperate labs (or all three).
If money wasn't an issue, I'd choose to be an astronomer first, then a molecular biologist, then an anthropologist. I'm particularly fascinated by the development of culture, art, and symbolism in early cro-magnon vs. neanderthal.

I find turning the lights low is a BIG help. It just makes it less intimidating for some reason. The best way to go about having a reason for this is to get dark pictures with lots of fine details into your slides. You can just kill the lights before you even start that way. Doctor some pics in photoshop to turn down the brightness and contrast... then your audience will be clamoring for you to turn the lights down.
A seperate spot isn't really an option for me either. My lab is divided up among several rooms in our building. Me and a few of the other more mature folks grouped together to make a 'quiet room' where we enjoy actually getting work done. The talkative 'Woo!-girl' crew is in another room entirely, thankfully. I swear if I had to hear one more time about the latest R&B video or what happened on 'Dancing with the Stars' I was going to strangle someone. I've now got a Red Sox fan to my back (I'm a Yankees fan), but we get along fine and rib each other about baseball.
I'm through my program and have a PhD as of spring of '08. I wasn't in love with my advisor or the institution, although I REALLY liked my project: Transposable elements, Group I Introns, and Hammerhead Ribozymes. It's too bad, because I would have liked to stay in Transposable elements, but the last thing I want to see at a meeting is my PhD advisor.
Neuroscience? Eegads. You like your science tough, confusing, and volumous. I couldn't hack neurology in a million years. I work across the hall from a neural stem cell lab, and those folks are some crazy kinds of smart.
I can't say as I'm the best TA either. My kids said in their TCE's that they liked my take-no-BS, give-no-BS approach, but I still didn't get the highest marks. Oh well, I suppose if I was able to connect with them, I wouldn't be here. You may need to literally script your defense and memorize it word for word. Some of my grad school friends with extreme stage fright did that, and if they practiced it enough, it actually sounded natural.
I watched your video. A few of your statements made it into my 'Have this with me when I tell folks I have AS' cheat-sheets. What makes V8 tick? Have you rigged up any rudimentary intelligence (i.e. go to the light, turn when you bump into something) for it? Is it fully remote controlled or do you just put it down and let it go to town? Any plans for a big brother to keep V8 company?
Amen! Go tell it on the mountain. My wife's got a PhD and has her eyes on a faculty position with all the grants, ingratiation, ass-kissing, fake pleasantries, and stress that goes with it. She's fully aware I've got absolutely no desire to give up wet benchwork and says she's OK with that. And I've got no problem with a wife who a) signs my paychecks, and b) makes more than me. Sexism is one thing that I never really went for - you don't need to bench press 300 pounds to be a world-class scientist. One day she'll make enough money that I can spend my summers snowboarding in New Zealand and my winters snowboarding in Colorado.... one day.
I HATE it when some smarmy prof blurts out a question when I'm in the middle of a sentence during a seminar. I usually respond with 'That's a GREAT question, and I've got a slide that addresses it later in my presentation.' and then I go on. What they learn by the end of the seminar is that the slide that addresses it is my acknowledgements slide, i.e. the only time I take questions is at the end.
And does any NT ever really say exactly what they're thinking? No. It's a good chunk of what makes socializing so tough when you've got AS. Fake pleasantries....
I didn't know either while in my program. And, to the extent where I can help myself, it would have done me good too. Some folks think I'm quirky, some find me intimidating due to my extremely muted facial expressions and body language, some think I'm a dick, some think I'm a dick with a good heart, some think I'm a dick and like the refreshing honesty... It all depends on who you talk to around here.
It was easier when I was working on transposons, I can get into that subject. As I said earlier, I like my job but I'm not passionate about the macrocosmic scheme of it (cancer biology). To me, cancer biolgoy research is a means to the end of being able to do molecular biology work. Kind of the reverse of everyone who finds the work itself to be the means to the end. Don't get me wrong, cancer bio is very very important, it's just not something I can talk about with any real interest.
Are you in the grad program at Notre Dame? You just described it to a 'T'. That damn program is a sinking ship with all the good rats (profs) leaving faster than a gay man at a southern baptist church rally. ND prides itself on the percentage of its undergrads who are accepted into med school. These days, med schools are looking for some research experience in their applicants, and ND realizes this. Once upon a time, the ND grad school existed for grad students, now it's just a place where some flakey undergrad can put in 4 months of half-assed benchwork so they can write 'I have research experience' on their application. It's tough when you've got to fight the administration for every little bit of support. They only care about inflating the undergrad grades, getting them on a bench for four months, and pointing to their med school acceptance rate in order to entice more spoiled rich kids into applying. I laugh my ass off every time I see an ND commercial during one of their football games spouting their bullcrap. It's all a show, it's all about money, it's all about the facade. There's nothing Catholic about that school except intolerance and money. Don't get me wrong, I've met a couple of REALLY good undergrads who were extremely smart, driven, and competent.. But that hovers around the 5% mark.

OK, end of rant. I'm trying to be more positive now.

Never been to Notre Dame, though my experience of US grad school was that the graduate students were the most uncritical, conformist bunch I've ever met - I actually liked the undergrads, especially the non-scientists. Here, both undergrads and PhD students are about equally awful. The staff is a very mixed bag, you have the absentee divas (the full professors) whose greatest virtue is that they're never there, the would-be full professors (who are as arrogant as the professors but actually show up for work, but have forgotten all about actual experimental science they ever knew), the oddballs and the staff at the very bottom of the career ladder (who do most of the real mentoring work and are the ones that actually keep the place running). I have a nickname for one of the professors around here: hexane. Hexane, after all, is an irritating, volatile substance that is hydrophobic in character.

Regarding #5 and #6, personally I've never told anyone except for a few friends. I think in a work environment it might be detrimental since they might treat me differently or something. I've even worked with people knowledgeable in ASD research and though I'm usually seen as quiet and serious, I don't think anyone's suspected.

Regarding #3, I don't like it too much either, though at these group meeting mingling things I usually stick with a few people I know and then through them I get introduced to others. I have a few scripted things to say e.g. some comment on the food to the person next to me also getting food if they're not already talking to someone. Or, relevant things like if I'm meeting with other grad students, there's pretty much a standard spread of questions like where are you from, what program are you in, what degree, what part of the city do you live in, and other basic questions about their educational/work background, and research interests. And if there's actual rapport with that person I'll usually naturally get into a real conversation with them - if not, then it dies out and I look for someone I know and tap their shoulder and say hi and try to join in if there's room in the "circle"... It can still get a bit awkward but I'm not totally avoidant like I was before. The other issue is that my CAPD is pretty bad sometimes so I can't even hear what someone is saying.. if there's that much background noise then I just leave...

The people at my school are on average about 30, and more than a third are from outside the US, so for the most part it's a mature, diverse group. Like some other Aspies, I seem to get along better with foreigners than with people from the US, I guess because of the acknowledged cultural differences there's more tolerance for quirks. Actually, I think 90% of the people I usually stick with aren't from the US.