Research and writing at postgraduate level
I just completed a 50,000 word thesis for my Masters degree in international relations. It was EXTREMELY painful to write and took me much longer than it should have. I was pretty good at the research aspect of it, but the hard part was organising the information and writing it coherently.
I later found out that people with AS often have difficulty with structuring and organising large pieces of writing; we also have trouble with written expression and with comprehension. I also have more difficulty than most people with understanding verbal communication. Also, in order to sufficiently focus when reading, I need to be in a very, very quiet environment. I do think my difficulties are AS-related because I've worked very long and hard to overcome them, but they still exist. I would like to know whether there are specific ways that I could get around these difficulties, now that I know they are AS-related (I was only diagnosed last year). I really want to pursue an academic career but I'm not sure whether it's possible, given how hard it was to write my Masters thesis.
My questions are:
- Can anyone here relate to this?
- Has anyone here struggled through a postgrad degree despite these kinds of AS-related difficulties with writing?
- Can these difficulties be overcome? Do you think an academic career is possible/realistic?
- Are there AS-specific ways of overcoming these difficulties, or would I simply be committing myself to more inevitable pain and torment, if, say, I were to pursue a PhD?
Thanks in advance for your advice or comments.
I later found out that people with AS often have difficulty with structuring and organising large pieces of writing; we also have trouble with written expression and with comprehension. I also have more difficulty than most people with understanding verbal communication. Also, in order to sufficiently focus when reading, I need to be in a very, very quiet environment. I do think my difficulties are AS-related because I've worked very long and hard to overcome them, but they still exist. I would like to know whether there are specific ways that I could get around these difficulties, now that I know they are AS-related (I was only diagnosed last year). I really want to pursue an academic career but I'm not sure whether it's possible, given how hard it was to write my Masters thesis.
My questions are:
- Can anyone here relate to this?
- Has anyone here struggled through a postgrad degree despite these kinds of AS-related difficulties with writing?
- Can these difficulties be overcome? Do you think an academic career is possible/realistic?
- Are there AS-specific ways of overcoming these difficulties, or would I simply be committing myself to more inevitable pain and torment, if, say, I were to pursue a PhD?
Thanks in advance for your advice or comments.
Disclaimer: This post has no advice
I can relate entirely to your issue. In fact, I struggled so much with my fourth year thesis (20,000 I think) that I did not apply for a PhD, due to the problems you have described. I congratulate you in getting through Masters, well done! These problems followed me into employment and I quit my last job because I struggled with the writing of reports and understanding broad conceptual things.
Can I ask, when you were researching, which you said you were pretty good at, did you find it difficult to:
- remember what you had read
- know whether you had found all the relevant previous research
- decide what was worth writing about and what was rubbish/irrelevant?
Those were the specific problems I had, before I even started to type anything up. If they were the same for you, and if others have advice on how to improve in these areas, I'm eagerly awaiting some responses
Hi yellowtamarin,
Thanks for your reply - it's good to know that someone else can relate.
Yes to all three questions. I do have trouble remembering what I read, i.e. storing enough information simultaneously in order to make sense of it all together. I also have trouble knowing whether I've found all the relevant previous research - I always have the feeling that I "just don't know enough" to write about it or draw conclusions. I went through so many sources that both my supervisors said that for my Masters I did enough research for a PhD! But one of the examiners gave me a low mark on the grounds that my thesis was not well structured. And yes, I think I included a lot of irrelevant details in my thesis, when I could have instead been elaborating more on the important themes.
Sorry to hear you quit your last job because of this. For me one of the hardest things is deciding whether to give up or to keep struggling to overcome these problems.
I'd say keep struggling, if you can. I think you may as well attempt the PhD. I kind of wish I had. What would be your other option? You may have the same issues in employment, like I did, so if you don't stick with academics you would need to choose your job wisely anyway.
I think I probably will do a PhD if I can; though it would probably mean condeming myself to a life of poverty, at least I'd be doing something I really want to do. (The alternative might mean doing a job I don't like and living in poverty anyway, given the current economic climate.)
What job were you doing that you had to quit, and what are you doing at the moment? What is stopping you from doing the PhD now that you kind of wish you'd done?
I think I probably will do a PhD if I can; though it would probably mean condeming myself to a life of poverty, at least I'd be doing something I really want to do. (The alternative might mean doing a job I don't like and living in poverty anyway, given the current economic climate.)
What job were you doing that you had to quit, and what are you doing at the moment? What is stopping you from doing the PhD now that you kind of wish you'd done?
I studied psychology, and then worked for our national statistical agency. The branch I was in wanted generalists, not specialists, so I had to do a lot of things I felt really uncomfortable with. I transferred to a department that was more "specialist orientated", but had to do a lot of research and writing up of my findings. I developed hypersomnia and just started falling asleep all the time. Soon after I quit, I got diagnosed with AS.
I quit earlier this year and am still looking for work. I may as well be attempting to write up a PhD thesis, since I'm not earning money anyway. I guess what holds me back, mostly, is that I can't get government funding for it so would have to work part-time, or get a scholorship. A scholorship involves doing class tutoring, aarghh! Sounds like my worst nightmare. Even if I went for that option, I don't think I'd have as much chance now at getting the scholorship because I left uni at the end of 2010, so it would more likely be given to the more recent grads. So yeah, I probably should have gone for it at the time.
I quit earlier this year and am still looking for work. I may as well be attempting to write up a PhD thesis, since I'm not earning money anyway. I guess what holds me back, mostly, is that I can't get government funding for it so would have to work part-time, or get a scholorship. A scholorship involves doing class tutoring, aarghh! Sounds like my worst nightmare. Even if I went for that option, I don't think I'd have as much chance now at getting the scholorship because I left uni at the end of 2010, so it would more likely be given to the more recent grads. So yeah, I probably should have gone for it at the time.
It sounds tough. I wish you the best of luck with finding the right job.
- Can anyone here relate to this?
- Has anyone here struggled through a postgrad degree despite these kinds of AS-related difficulties with writing?
- Can these difficulties be overcome? Do you think an academic career is possible/realistic?
- Are there AS-specific ways of overcoming these difficulties, or would I simply be committing myself to more inevitable pain and torment, if, say, I were to pursue a PhD?
Thanks in advance for your advice or comments.
Yes, I can relate to that. I spent over 15 years as an undergrad or postgrad university student, but only have enough completed degrees to account for less than half of that. I kept having to drop out for reasons that I now know were tied to my AS diagnosis. I have poor executive function skills - I cannot get motivated until the last moment (that may work with exams, but definitely doesn't work with a large thesis). I also get "lost" in the huge, impersonal, unstructured world of university. Everyone expects you to automatically know how to manage being a postgrad student, and how and when to contact your supervisor, but I never worked it out. The system was "sink or swim" - I sank.
I managed to do a Master's degree (more or less a pass MA - not MA Hons), where I needed to submit a 15,000 word thesis. I was able to get through this, despite some comment from my supervisor that I hadn't seen him much. I can never work out what I am supposed to do with the supervisor. I am not a social person (surprise, surprise) so I have no reason to go to my supervisor unless there is a set appointment. The idea that I should just "spontaneously" make connection with him when I "need to" ends up with me never making any meetings. I don't "get" the student-supervisor relationship.
I tried both an MA Hons course and a PhD. I managed all the coursework OK (average mark 87.5%) but I got stuck writing the first page of the thesis - endless repetitions of the first page. I don't think I know how to plan beyond just starting and then writing until I finish - which works OK for short works, but not for the long MA Hons or PhD thesis.
That sounds a bit like me. I did a psychology (and other social sciences) degree in Sydney, and then worked for a Commonwealth government department, where we were using lots of ABS statistics. I worked in the research branch and we would get the monthly ABS stats and analyse them and write briefings for senior management. I also had to do a lot of phone interviews, which was "fun" (not) for me, who doesn't like making or receiving phone calls. I tended to do fewer calls, but mined the contact for lots of information, so I got my work done. Anyway, the calls were more or less structured - not social chit chat but asking people questions about their jobs or businesses - so it was possible to use the analytical part of my brain for these conversations, rather than the emotional part. Because people like talking about themselves, it wasn't quite so hard to get contacts to give information - it was nothing secret, personal or confidential. Just gathering broad industry intelligence - general trends.
I was lucky after that, in that I got into a specialist, number-crunching area of statistics and programming, which gradually developed into an interesting technical career with scope for creativity. I still work in the public sector, and my boss and some colleagues know about my Dx.
I suspect that there are niche occupations out there where you could thrive, but getting there can take some time - and mean slogging through some less exciting and more stressful positions first, until people realise what you are good at and how to exploit your strengths.
I managed to do a Master's degree (more or less a pass MA - not MA Hons), where I needed to submit a 15,000 word thesis. I was able to get through this, despite some comment from my supervisor that I hadn't seen him much. I can never work out what I am supposed to do with the supervisor. I am not a social person (surprise, surprise) so I have no reason to go to my supervisor unless there is a set appointment. The idea that I should just "spontaneously" make connection with him when I "need to" ends up with me never making any meetings. I don't "get" the student-supervisor relationship.
I tried both an MA Hons course and a PhD. I managed all the coursework OK (average mark 87.5%) but I got stuck writing the first page of the thesis - endless repetitions of the first page. I don't think I know how to plan beyond just starting and then writing until I finish - which works OK for short works, but not for the long MA Hons or PhD thesis.
Thanks one-A-N. I really appreciate your post, which I can very much relate to, especially the poor executive function skills. It is somewhat of a relief though to know that it relates to AS (I was diagnosed last year). For most of my life I assumed I was just inherently lazy, disorganized and lacking in motivation. The disorganized part is true, but I'm definitely not lazy or lacking in ambition. I also have poor emotional management skills, so it really didn't help that I got romantically involved with my postgrad supervisor and that it ended catastrophically.
It's embarrassing for me that I first started uni at 17, am turning 34 (! !!) this year and have just finished a Masters degree on top of two undergrad degrees. I've only ever had casual employment in between (except for one full-time job that lasted six weeks).
Honestly, sometimes I think I'll just do the PhD that I'm interesting in doing, and then kill myself afterwards if I can't find anything meaningful to do. It may sound overly dramatic but it's a thought that's crossed my mind frequently as of late.
If you don't mind my asking, what are you doing with your life now?
I was lucky after that, in that I got into a specialist, number-crunching area of statistics and programming, which gradually developed into an interesting technical career with scope for creativity. I still work in the public sector, and my boss and some colleagues know about my Dx.
I suspect that there are niche occupations out there where you could thrive, but getting there can take some time - and mean slogging through some less exciting and more stressful positions first, until people realise what you are good at and how to exploit your strengths.
Cheers, you just answered my question already
I'm in Australia too (Melbourne)
I thought I was being all secretive saying "national statistical agency" but we are all Aussies, hehe.
I'm in Melbourne too Seventh, and am 31, so if I did a PhD next year I'd be around 35 when I finished. I actually understand what you are saying about "just do it, and end it all if it comes to nothing". Of course you (hopefully) wouldn't really do that, but it's kind of a motivator to give it a go, I reckon. Because if you DON'T do the studies, you certainly WON'T be able to do those meaningful things you were hoping to do (the ones you need the qualification for), ever. If you can somehow manage it financially, being a student for life is not such a bad thing.
Btw, how do you propose to financially support yourself through extra study? Now that I know you are in Melbourne, I'm curious if would have a plan in place for that? Centrelink doesn't support you for anything beyond a fourth year as far as I know. Part-time work?
That sounds a bit like me. I did a psychology (and other social sciences) degree in Sydney, and then worked for a Commonwealth government department, where we were using lots of ABS statistics. I worked in the research branch and we would get the monthly ABS stats and analyse them and write briefings for senior management. I also had to do a lot of phone interviews, which was "fun" (not) for me, who doesn't like making or receiving phone calls. I tended to do fewer calls, but mined the contact for lots of information, so I got my work done. Anyway, the calls were more or less structured - not social chit chat but asking people questions about their jobs or businesses - so it was possible to use the analytical part of my brain for these conversations, rather than the emotional part. Because people like talking about themselves, it wasn't quite so hard to get contacts to give information - it was nothing secret, personal or confidential. Just gathering broad industry intelligence - general trends.
I was lucky after that, in that I got into a specialist, number-crunching area of statistics and programming, which gradually developed into an interesting technical career with scope for creativity. I still work in the public sector, and my boss and some colleagues know about my Dx.
I suspect that there are niche occupations out there where you could thrive, but getting there can take some time - and mean slogging through some less exciting and more stressful positions first, until people realise what you are good at and how to exploit your strengths.
Indeed, another public sector job would probably be best for me. They seem the most receptive to "exploiting ones strengths" as you mentioned. But still, most employers are still stuck in the "improve ones weaknesses" way of thinking, which I think is flawed, and definifely not the best method for Aspies.
Your job sounds great, did you have to work hard to persuade them to utilise your strengths? Or did it just sort of work out that way over time?
I have always had very high maths skills - I scored in the top 100 maths students in NSW in the HSC (end of high school - decades ago now). So - although I have underachieved academically because of my emotional and executive function problems - I was always able to do "number crunching" and to understand what statistics were needed by management and how to get them out of complex databases - that bit is fun. Because of this I gradually moved into specialist roles where a degree of eccentricity is pretty common. Number crunching boffins are expected to be a bit Aspie, I think!
Wow, I can totally relate to thread.
I did my undergrad in 5 years, which was normal for Mechanical Engineering at my school; studying a week before exams, never earlier. Then I did my masters, with thesis, in 8 terms, but should have only needed 5. Now I am dropping out of my PhD after 9 terms. I was only Dx'd 11 months ago.
My masters research was done in 6 terms but I needed 2 more to finish the thesis. I restructured the thesis probably 15 times, which also meant re-writing each chapter. I spent hours with my supervisor trying to explain the problems I was having with the order and structure, but she never seemed to understand what I was having difficulty with. My research area was corrosion of stainless steel reinforcement in concrete, so my examiners and supervisor expected me to be slow, so that kind of covered over the problem I was having.
I have stalled on my PhD because I have to submit a research proposal, similar in size to my masters thesis (~50 000 words), and have not been able to put together something I can accept for 16 months now, plus my research area is very active so my literature review for that is a moving target. I've learned since my Dx that my aspergers is the root of my issues. I decided very recently that I am going to withdraw from my program because the proposal and thesis are destroying me. It isn't the program itself I have difficulty with; I have a high average in courses taken, all of which were high level grad courses, I recieved a scholarship for part of my PhD studies, I also published several (short) papers on my research. So for me the large-scale writing limitations are really what has stopped me.
I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from attempting a PhD just because of AS, but it may not be realistic for most of those who can relate to this thread. I know that I could eventually finish everything, but the quality of my finished product would not reflect my knowledge, intelligence or ability. For me, another reason to not continue is that I can't compete in the self-promoting, fund-seeking world of PhD engineering research. If a PhD really gets you to where you want your career to be, then maybe its worth marching through hell to get it...
I did my undergrad in 5 years, which was normal for Mechanical Engineering at my school; studying a week before exams, never earlier. Then I did my masters, with thesis, in 8 terms, but should have only needed 5. Now I am dropping out of my PhD after 9 terms. I was only Dx'd 11 months ago.
My masters research was done in 6 terms but I needed 2 more to finish the thesis. I restructured the thesis probably 15 times, which also meant re-writing each chapter. I spent hours with my supervisor trying to explain the problems I was having with the order and structure, but she never seemed to understand what I was having difficulty with. My research area was corrosion of stainless steel reinforcement in concrete, so my examiners and supervisor expected me to be slow, so that kind of covered over the problem I was having.
I have stalled on my PhD because I have to submit a research proposal, similar in size to my masters thesis (~50 000 words), and have not been able to put together something I can accept for 16 months now, plus my research area is very active so my literature review for that is a moving target. I've learned since my Dx that my aspergers is the root of my issues. I decided very recently that I am going to withdraw from my program because the proposal and thesis are destroying me. It isn't the program itself I have difficulty with; I have a high average in courses taken, all of which were high level grad courses, I recieved a scholarship for part of my PhD studies, I also published several (short) papers on my research. So for me the large-scale writing limitations are really what has stopped me.
I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from attempting a PhD just because of AS, but it may not be realistic for most of those who can relate to this thread. I know that I could eventually finish everything, but the quality of my finished product would not reflect my knowledge, intelligence or ability. For me, another reason to not continue is that I can't compete in the self-promoting, fund-seeking world of PhD engineering research. If a PhD really gets you to where you want your career to be, then maybe its worth marching through hell to get it...
A question for you BBB in regards to the bolded bits: Has your supervisor given you an indication of the level of the work you are producing? I.e., while you do not believe it is of high enough standard, what do they think? Are you producing something that could be submitted, and would receive a good mark, whether you believe it is good enough or not?
I felt that my thesis could have been much better, but I also - when taking an objective viewpoint - think that it was probably just as good as anyone else's. I actually got a worse mark that I expected, because my marker did not like my ideas and somehow that seemed to justify him marking me poorly on things like presentation! (My presentation was perfectly fine and he gave me the lowest mark for it.) So I actually think I CAN produce SOMETHING, even though I will feel uncomfortable about its quality.
Do you feel that you are doing a disservice to the community by submitting something that doesn't meet your own standards? If that's the case, I can totally relate to how you are feeling. But I think we may not be able to see the value in our work as others can, and perhaps we are shortchanging the community by giving up? Just because we have such high standards doesn't mean we shouldn't at least put our ideas out there. I mean, for psychology theses at least, there's a Discussion section of the report, where you can talk about limitations and things that could be improved in future studies. As long as that is included, haven't we done all that we could, and provided all the information so that at least our basic ideas can be heard and perhaps built upon?
This way of thinking is something I am struggling with but I think we need to think this way and keep going if we can. While we have trouble with some aspects of writing a thesis, other people have other issues (e.g. poor English skills, weak ideas, poor statistical ability, etc etc) but they keep going. So should we.
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