Aspie Networking -- would you rather hire an aspie or an NT?

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As an aspie attorney, I've been held back significantly by an inability to network, meet potential clients, bring in business. They call this "rainmaking" for lawyers. To date, I have been terribly unsuccessful at making rain.

However, I feel that, as an aspie, I make a great lawyer. I am very logical, very analytical, am a perfectionist and have high ethical standards. I also think very creatively and see analogies and connections between different areas of law that my peers do not, often coming up with a strong but novel argument no one has made before. Everything I write for the court I view as a piece of literary art. I have even learned to consciously raise my voice and modulate my tone to do better when I'm arguing orally. I may not be a great trial attorney, but few are. It can take years to get to trial, if ever -- over 95% of caes settle or are otherwise resolved before trial. Because there are so few trials, it is hard for any lawyer to become really good at them, to the growing trend is for any lawyer to bring in a trial specialist if they have a case that reaches that stage. So any difficulty I may have connecting with and getting sympathy from jurors is really a non-issue.

Regardless, people mostly think of lawyers based on what they see on tv, where it is all talking in court to a bunch of jurors. So people hear my soft, monotone voice and see my social awkwardness and think, "He can't be a very good lawyer." But they'd be dead wrong. And if I ever needed a lawyer, I'd hope to find an aspie like me (assuming I did not represent myself). Unfortunately, merely doing great wark behind the scenes on cases does not get you business. Most larger corporations have executives who choose what law firm they hire, and they generally choose to give business to a friend from college, perhaps a golfing buddy. Networking stuff.

It occurs to me that networking with other aspies may be a solution for me and others who, like me, got themselves into a career where success depends, at least in part, on bringing in customers or business. On the flip side, I can think of a number of jobs where I might prefer hiring an aspie because of their better attention to detail and greater honesty. Also, I figure most aspies, like me, tend to have fewer friends, so if we do need a professional, we are less likely to have a buddy who works in that profession, and are more likely to resort to looking in the yellow pages or internet. The more I think about it, aspie-to-aspie networking seems to make sense all around and does not, at least for now, violate any discrimination laws. It is sort of akin to gay rights groups that put out their own telephone directories with only businesses owned by gay people.

I don't know if any aspie professional networking site already exists, but I'm looking for feedback on whether others would be interested, or think it's a good idea.

It would depend on what the job is for. I am not sure I would hire an aspie to do sales and customer support. However, I would definately look at an aspie for back office type work.

Linked In is probably the site to use.

http://www.linkedin.com/

And I'd certainly hire aspies in computing... they're the best deep-thinkers.

I would expect an aspie to excel in any engineering or technical position that does not involve excessive customer contact. I am an electrical engineer. I have a linkedin profile (search for otto9otto), but I am not allowed to post hyperlinks due to insufficient number of posts.

I would be willing to employ a fellow aspie as long as they could agree to a few basic ground rules. One of them would be that when you are at work you do "work stuff" rather than things associated with your "special interest".

I have seen what happens at work when a person chooses to stop working on the job he was assigned and then starts to go off at a tangent. It is not good and can lead to the person who went off on a tangent getting sacked.

Things could be good if you get an aspie whose special interest is the topic which he or she is working on. For instance if I was in charge of a wall paper company then an aspie who is obsessed with wall paper patterns could make a very useful member of staff.

If I needed a legal professional to prepare a contract, or give me specific legal advice, I'd happily use someone with AS with the appropriate experience. If I needed someone to represent me in court, I'd prefer not to. Being able to consistently give a superior performance in a court room and having AS are mutually exclusive, if you consider the diagnostic criteria.


You'd be wrong to make that assumption. I expect only a minority of those with AS would excel in an engineering or technical discipline, although that's not inconsistent with there being an unusually large number of individuals with AS within those fields of expertise. Certainly, you'd be correct more often than not with regard to the customer contact part of your statement.

I think you may not understand what "represent in court" means.

Over 99% of the time, it does NOT mean questioning witnesses or arguing to a jury. It means you and the opposing lawyer talk to the judge about some preliminary, precedural issue that is in dispute. You will have already submitted written briefs arguing your respective positions, and the judge probably has his/her mind mostly made up. It is not a popularity contest -- there is really no time for any social pleasantries with the judge. I have a knack for sensing the logical flaw in any argument I hear, which makes me very good at responding to any arguments the opposing counsel may try to come up with for the first time at the hearing. My memory for the underlying facts and law is substantially superior to most NT's, meaning if I need to pull out a fact or case that was not in the papers, I can do so where others could not. I also have a knack at analogizing--taking a particular dispute that may seem very esoteric, and re-casting it as something more familiar that illustrates why my position is superior. Eye contact is also not a significant issue, because both attorneys are facing the judge, from some distance away -- I find the issue of eye contact is not an inability to make eye contact, but rather than inability to make eye contact IN SOCIAL SITUATIONS. I certainly have no problem staring a judge full in the face from 20 feet away while I pitch my case, whereas I have trouble giving socially appropriate eye contact passing co-workers in the halls of my office.

I also think there is a big flaw not recognizing that you cannot generally hire one lawyer to appear in court and another to do the paper work. Before you ever appear in court on anything, you've already drafted and filed papers with the court and most of the time, the court has already made up its mind how it will rule based on the papers and they only have hearings to be sure they did not miss anything. So even assuming an NT would be better in court than an aspie, you have to ask yourself whether it is better to have the underlying papers written by an aspie -- who would probably do a better job -- and then argued by that aspie, or to have the underlying papers written by an NT -- which tend to be sloppier and less well-organized and thorough -- and then argued by the NT. Because the judge probably will decide based on the papers, you would actually be better off with the aspie lawyer EVEN ASSUMING the NT might be able to give a better oral presentation.

And before you ever appear in court, or file any papers, the case itself needs to be analyzed to see if there even is a case (or, if you are on the defense, to see if you have a defense). I excel at that process of critical analysis and see possible claims and defenses my peers do not, because I see connections and analogies they do not, and I simply have better recall of prior law I've studied. And that's really the foundation of your case, if you do not realize you have claim or defense, you cannot put it in your papers, or argue it in court. Again, seeking an NT lawyer who cannot analyze or draft as well, just because they may come off more warmly in court, is very short-sighted.

The bottom line is, I very much dispute the notion that an aspie would do worse in court than an NT and, even if that were true, I dispute the notion that that means you would be better off with an NT lawyer to handle a court case.

Now, obviously, this depends in part on the individual, and where on the spectrum a person may fall, and what their particular issues are. Anyway, it's a bit annoying to have an aspie regurgitate the exact kind of stereotypical bias that I have been facing my whole career.

There are multiple examples of those on the spectrum being functional and effective speakers; while it is not an innate trait, it can be attained. When teaching a room of high school students music, I'm a much different communicator and persona than I am when working with an individual or being addressed by a store clerk when shopping. It is the networking aspect that I have trouble with; other, less qualified people get the call for the job, and I get the phone call to clean up their mess when they ask around who can fix the problems. While it seems that my peers have the cognitive knowledge of my ability, since I am not present and 'asking' for the work in the accepted way, it goes elsewhere until issues arise.

To address the OP - if you're a good lawyer, if you listen to my problems, find my solution, and work towards that goal... I'd hire you. It does not matter to me whether you are AS, NT, or the second cousin to the Purple People Eater, as my goals are my concern.


M.

There is one question to ask: who would do the job better, and that's best asnwerd by individual rather than the label.

Quite likely, but delivering a scripted talk, as in say a lecture, is significantly different to engaging in a dynamic, interactive dialogue where you can't be sure what'll be thrown at you next. My comment above reflects that, and accounts for the AS trait of inflexibility in thought process, as well as the general impairment in ability to communicate.


You did ask a certain question in the thread title, and I've given you a relevant answer. Of course your response doesn't recognise the possibility I might not be a US citizen, and that I may have experience of a different legal system (though recent events indicate even some us British folk who've never set foot in your country are subject to your excuse for justice). Even so, my opinion is based on the diagnostic criteria for AS, and other generally-accepted associated traits -- certainly not stereotype.

I would hire as many AS people as I could find.

Just imagine... an office where no one makes small talk around the water cooler.

I have worked in customer services and though my phone manner may not have been as easy and flowing as my colleagues, the clients and customers loved the fact that I always followed through and did the work that was agreed. I always got high scores on customer surveys. My manager didn't always agree with those results but couldn't argue with them.

I've also worked in a care home with elderly people providing recreational therapy. My 'old people' appreciated my openness and honesty, and weren't afraid to tell me when I forgot my manners. It was a great place to learn because they were so brutally honest. I've always found older people more willing to accept me.

I don't feel that I am any less capable of doing work that involves interacting with the public, the board of directors, clients, etc. I just do it a little differently. I may choose jobs that are back office, because I perfer to work with software and systems, but there are times when I have to train people, or present reports or business cases and I think I do it just as well as my NT colleagues. I certainly write better reports because I'm more capable of keeping my opinions out of them.

I prefer to work with AS colleagues. We happily bludgeon each other with ideas and comments that would make NTs cringe, knowing that neither of us with be offended by the exchange. We do have the common decency to do this out of earshot of the NTs that may be offended. I find myself recharged by conversations that don't require forced social filters. I'm fortunate that my present job allows me to spend half my time with an AS manager.

Well, duh, of course I would be interested in such a network if it existed. But I wouldn't want to use my linkedin or facebook, etc. account for it, because I also have to do networking there in the NT world, where I might be discriminated against if someone found out I have AS. Like the gay businesses example, but the directory is only given to other gay people.

OH MY GOD

Danish IT firm hires Autistic workers

This story appeared on BBC news a few weeks ago. It isn't just the fact that they prefer to hire autistic people for their analytical and number skills, but the accommodations the firm makes for them, such as fixed routines and quiet work environment.

LinkedIn is fine for professionals, but for grunts like me who are scrabbling around for pretty low-level administrative jobs it's pretty pointless. I did try and sign up for my translation skills, but after about a year and a half with no contacts or even interest I deleted my account.

I totally agree that networking is key to finding a job and advancing in that career, but surely the social problems aspies have procludes them from meeting the people to network with. Also, another approach to job hunting that seems pretty popular is approaching companies direct rather than sitting at your computer browsing job ads. The thought of speculatively walking into a company and asking the HR peopel if they have any jobs just fills me with dread.

Looks like me, and more like me, are doomed to more time unemployed, and simply hoping for a lucky break.