Work for Aspies in Toronto, Canada

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My 20 year old son has applied for numerous jobs, mostly in Food Service Worker category. He has yet to even receive an interview. Anyone know of an organization in Toronto who hires Aspies, or of a good website for finding jobs for those on the spectrum? He is generally nonverbal but is extremely polite & reliable. Any entry level position would at least get him into the workforce. Thanks for any suggestions

Maybe he could do data-entry somewhere, if he's capable of quickly entering data on a speadsheet. They'd be less likely to ignore his application because of bad social skills than a fast-food place because the job doesn't require socializing or working with the public.

Thanks for the suggestion. Where would I go to find a job in data entry?
He has done a college course to work within a kitchen in a healthcare setting eg hospital or nursing home. He would not survive in a fast paced restaurant setting. He also has a real interest in food (and eating it too)!

I've worked in data entry for the past 34 years, 33 years in one place.

You should google "looking for employment" or something like that. Out will pop many employment-related websites like Glassdoor (I hope they have a Canadian branch). Go into them and type in "data entry." Jobs will pop up, especially in the Toronto area. He has to create an account and compile a resume to upload into that account.

The jobs are usually pretty low-paying--but they're a start. Make sure you counsel him and coach him before he goes on his interview. Do role play. Make sure he knows he must not "stim" or exhibit any autistic-like symptoms on the interview. If he passes the interview, the job itself shouldn't be really stressful. He doesn't have to play the NT game if he does his job well. He just has to be superficially friendly, and compliant with the supervisor's wishes (without seeming too compliant) He has to make it to work on time. If he needs to stim (if he stims), perhaps he could do it in the bathroom on a break.

He has to dress well (preferably in a suit), make eye contact with the interviewer, answer the questions posed in a concise manner. He might have to take tests in determining data-entry (typing) speed and in basic skills like grammar and arithmetic. He has to make transitions well (i.e., from the interview to the test). You cannot be in the interview room with him.

Above all, to reiterate, make sure he doesn't exhibit any autistic-like behaviors when he is on the interview; otherwise, they WILL NOT hire him. Guaranteed. (unless the job is part of a program for people with ASD's or other conditions).

Good luck in your pursuit.

He should also obtain some kind of formal qualification from a "college" in Canada (what we in the US call "trade schools", or from a university in Canada.

Um, really? Some of the things you've mentioned can be impossible for people on the spectrum, especially the eye contact thing and answering questions on the spot! I know people who exhibit lots of autistic behaviours and they have gotten jobs! Some actually disclosed in a resume, not even waiting until the interview!

My recommendation would be getting a job coach. If you could find someone with connections in the food market industry, that would be helpful. I think Gail Hawkins' book (http://www.amazon.ca/Find-Works-People- ... 1843101513) had lots of helpful advice - I read it 5 years ago but I remember she talked a lot about job coaching in this book. Also, developing appropriate disclosure techniques and advocacy skills is crucial - there are books on that out there, too.

^^
This lady does job coaching for kids with ASD in Toronto. She might be expensive. She does job shadowing too:LINK

Here is a link to Autism Ontario's employment opportunity page. It discusses programs that help autistic adults find and keep jobs but it won't be immediate. He has to apply to participate in one of these programs and then go through the program workshops ect. and some have job shadowing (a person that will observe him on the job and help him keep it). That might be useful. They usually find entry level positions for the adults in this program so that might work for him right now. LINK2

This is the one that does job shadowing:
LINK3
Okay this doesn't link to the program- there's a Hawking program with job shadowing or at-least there was-I'll look for it. *Sorry, I can't find this- it might not exist anymore.

As for places that need data entry, here are Workoplolis search results for data entry:
LINK4

* I agree with Mathgirl that it's impossible for many ASD people to just not act autistic during the interview. Another caveat about telling him to make eye contact: if you do this , have him practice it with you. If it doesn't come naturally for him he might get it wrong. My first attempt resulted in creepy staring, holding eye contact for too long and then when I was told about that and tried to reduce my eye contact but still maintain it, I tried making eye contact out of the corner of my eyes until I was told to turn my head. My mum would tell me when I was making creepy eye contact with her after coming back from an interview or seeing a friend and that's how I learned not to do it, most of the time. No eye contact is better than creepy eye contact. The same goes for putting on a fake smile and orienting his body to face the other person, making his body language more open, moving closer to the person he's talking to, shaking hands etc. The hand shake can be way too hard or way too soft, it can go on way too long, there has to be a balance. If you just tell him "don't do X" he might go to another extreme or do something that looks weird. Doing it wrong can be worse than not doing it at all. It'd be good to have job shadowing for this kind of thing. My mum wanted me to do it but I couldn't stand the idea of someone constantly watching me while I worked.

Um, really...pardon me....excuse et moi.....one doesn't have to use that tone.

The ideas presented after me were great; they supplemented mine greatly, obviously.

However, this is the reality in a considerable portion of the working world: Answering questions right away, eye contact, superficial NT-ness. Disclosure after hiring is problematic as well: in reality, the company, unless it is enlightened, knowledgeable about ASD's, is REALLY impressed with the employee's work, or has a personnel HR with experience with the Spectrum, will not see this advocacy as a positive action; they will, instead, frequently begin to harbor suspicions about the employee. This is borne out of IGNORANCE---but the ignorance is there, and does rear its ugly head.

Until advocacy changes this scene, I would, as a default, advocate the interviewee appear as NT as possible, and not disclose. Obviously, I would advocate taking the steps presented above as well, especially for when advocacy changes the prevailing climate. I will have to have a good look at what was presented; failure to do so would be ignorance.

By the way, I am one of those employees whom personnel/HR wanted to get rid off. I exhibit some non-NT behaviors myself. I am undiagnosed, yet almost positive I'm on the Spectrum, based on past and present history. The only reason why I've lasted this long is because of the quality of my work (automaton, superficial, even menial work though it is). If I were just an above-average worker, I would have been gone by 1985.

Um, really...pardon me....excuse et moi.....one doesn't have to use that tone.

The ideas presented after me were great; they supplemented mine greatly, obviously.

However, this is the reality in a considerable portion of the working world: Answering questions right away, eye contact, superficial NT-ness. Disclosure after hiring is problematic as well: in reality, the company, unless it is enlightened, knowledgeable about ASD's, is REALLY impressed with the employee's work, or has a personnel HR with experience with the Spectrum, will not see this advocacy as a positive action; they will, instead, frequently begin to harbor suspicions about the employee. This is borne out of IGNORANCE---but the ignorance is there, and does rear its ugly head.

Until advocacy changes this scene, I would, as a default, advocate the interviewee appear as NT as possible, and not disclose. Obviously, I would advocate taking the steps presented above as well, especially for when advocacy changes the prevailing climate. I will have to have a good look at what was presented; failure to do so would be ignorance.

By the way, I am one of those employees whom personnel/HR wanted to get rid off. I exhibit some non-NT behaviors myself. I am undiagnosed, yet almost positive I'm on the Spectrum, based on past and present history. The only reason why I've lasted this long is because of the quality of my work (automaton, superficial, even menial work though it is). If I were just an above-average worker, I would have been gone by 1985.

If this comes out double-posted, my apologies.

Thanks Everyone. I have heard some great advice & ideas. I am exploring some options for data entry courses, but there do not seem to be many that suit the purpose. There only seem to be online courses & not sure how this would work.
My son did attend an entire session of job training through Hawkins Institute but he was only able to get a newspaper delivery job which is true extortion. He needs to keep this job to maintain an employment record but the pay is an insult to an intelligent young adult. He is very hesitant in his responses so at interview, he would really not present well. He could certainly not "act NT".

Thanks Everyone. I have heard some great advice & ideas. I am exploring some options for data entry courses, but there do not seem to be many that suit the purpose. There only seem to be online courses & not sure how this would work.
My son did attend an entire session of job training through Hawkins Institute but he was only able to get a newspaper delivery job which is true extortion. He needs to keep this job to maintain an employment record but the pay is an insult to an intelligent young adult. He is very hesitant in his responses so at interview, he would really not present well. He could certainly not "act NT".

I wish you luck in your pursuit.

Data entry, much of the time, is really very simple; one only has to know how to type. It frequently involves typing, into a PC, things like dates, addresses, money amounts, codes peculiar to a company, and sometimes more conventional typing. He could type numbers from either the top of the keyboard, or the right side of the keyboard (like a calculator). I type from the top. One doesn't have to take online courses to succeed in obtaining a data entry position, unless one needs to learn how to type. All I needed was a high school diploma.

For data entry jobs, they might ask how many "keystrokes per hour" he types, in addition to his "words per minute" typing speed. If possible, your son could ask the interviewer for the results of any data entry test he takes, so he could know his "keystrokes per hour" rate.

I used to deliver papers at a very late age: 18. You're right---it's extortion and an insult to a young adult's intelligence.

I'd have to do some research to find programs which might contain job coaching. Obviously, that would be quite useful I would assume that a Toronto-based Asperger's or Autism organization might be able to guide you and him toward a job coach. You could also record you and him role-playing the interview. Practice, inevitably, will increase his confidence.

Your could start with the Asperger's Society of Ontario, and go from there.

Lol, sorry for appearing snooty, I just did that because it's my biggest pet peeve when people say "you have to act as non-autistic as possible in order to succeed". To me, it's equivalent to saying "society hates black people, so in order to succeed, you have to bleach your skin and act as white as possible". This may be true and logical based on how society is prejudiced toward racial minorities, and was especially true before a bunch of black people advocated for themselves on a major scale. However, bleaching your skin or trying to remove all signs of your condition is not always a viable option and not the only way to be. I honestly believe there is another way you can go, where you don't need to do that, and you're right, some places are more accepting than others. You do end up being more restricted when you are noticeably different, but it's not hopeless; you just have to learn additional skills and ways to present yourself that compensate for your differences. Like what you mentioned with showing superior work performance; maybe your coworkers don't like you much for whatever reason may be, but you're still there. It's up to you to figure out why they wanted to get rid of you and try your best to mediate the situation, but there are multiple ways to deal with any situation, some of which don't have to involve trying to be someone you're not. Besides, we need more advocates to change the scene.

I am a huge in-person advocate for people at all dimensions of the spectrum; some people love me for it, some people hate me for it, but I just keep going. I think the key with advocacy is to highlight the positives in things that are already out there for people on the spectrum while also proposing how to make these things better. We also need to focus on commonalities between ourselves and "NTs" rather than constantly talking about differences, because that's really the only way for people to begin seeing us more as equals. I understand that the society is ableist, but it's up to us to not show that we accept the status quo because it's obviously not a fair and respectful state for the society in general to be in. I really don't know about you or if it's just me, but I find that there are a lot of accepting people and places out there.

To the OP: one thing I would recommend for being more comfortable with interviews is preparing answers to typical interview questions in advance. There are typical interview question lists online, along with tips for preparing for interviews. One important thing to learn is that these questions are not to be answered as regular conversation questions, but need to follow a particular structure that can be scripted and rehearsed. For example, this website provides really good tips: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsm ... questions/

The content of your answers is the most important because it will give the employer information regarding your competence, which is really the goal of interviews. So even if you come off as pretty autistic in the interview, having excellent answers prepared that emphasize your strengths would be a good way to compensate for these other things. I really want to learn more about the questions that they ask in interviews for different jobs and write some sample disclosure scripts for each type of situation - I have waay too much experience with disclosure (some from my knowledge of other people's experiences, what worked and what didn't). If you have any questions or need specific help, please don't hesitate to PM me and I would be glad to help out further.

Oh, and also, when it comes to the type of job you're looking for, go with areas where strengths+interests add together to yield the largest total. I personally hate data entry and I know I wouldn't last doing that for the rest of my life. Enthusiasm in interviews is also important and people do notice if it looks like you really don't want to be there; that's why interest is very important.

Of course, there must be advocacy--but it yields results which are more readily applicable to the future, rather than the present.

Upon reflection, It is possible that I'm thinking within a American context, rather than a Canadian one--when I should be thinking within a Canadian one.

A person on the Spectrum has a better possibility of modifying his/her self for the situation than a black person trying to pass for white. I think the analogy has pertinence--there is the sense that the person with ASD's "cannot help it", and it's probably true amongst some on the Spectrum--but I don't think it's precisely analogous to a black person "bleaching his skin" in order to appear white. I don't believe there is an absolute separation between those on the Spectrum, and those who are neurotypical.

I understand that an advocate has to be somewhat aggressive in his/her advocacy at times; this could mean seeming prickly, snooty, etc. However, there are those who don't respond to that methodology; instead, they respond when honey, rather than acid, is presented to them as an inducement.

Good cop/bad cop, I believe, is an effective way to effect change in those who stubbornly refuse to give up their ignorant notions.

I work with people who have “severe” ASDs and I don’t think they can “help themselves”. However, some people break through in other ways, like Carly Fleischmann did with typing. She could help herself to some extent in that she learned a way to communicate, but she will still be and act very autistic for the rest of her life. I think the black-white thing is similar – while a black person can acculturate very well, he/she will still be black. There is a part of autism that you cannot remove, ever, at least for the majority of people.

However, I have noticed that a certain proportion of people on the spectrum, who tend to be described as “high-functioning” or “mild” based on certain classifications, can change their behaviours to a degree for varying periods of time, but often with detrimental side effects like burnout. The thing about autism is that if you can act “NT” to a certain extent and can function well in society, then you would no longer be classified as being on the spectrum. While it’s hard to draw the diagnostic line, it is important to remember that a large proportion of people on the spectrum are just unable to break out of it and act NT, and must therefore compensate for it in other ways. Assuming otherwise diminishes the significance or the truth of their disability. My parents have this kind of mentality about mental illness (e.g. people who are depressed are just lazy and need to snap out of it) and I can’t agree with this type of thinking at all. If you look at the job market, people with more visible disabilities actually often have an easier time finding jobs because they make the company look good. When you act normal, though, people don’t believe that you have any disability and expect you to be able to do everything in the same way as everyone else. So it’s effectively lying as well as submitting to the notions of ableism by hiding certain behaviours as though they are unacceptable. I love bringing out the people I work with into the community because it exposes the public to diversity and, I feel, goes toward desensitizing them toward various sorts of behavioural differences.

I don’t believe in the ASD-NT distinction, either. There is no such thing as racial dichotomy, either, when you look at it; there are people who are from a mixture of backgrounds and you can’t really categorize them in any way. I don’t think any dichotomy works when it comes to people and, as a society, we need to work on trying to see each person as an individual rather than putting them into boxes and assigning labels. But the problem is, doing so is a somewhat natural thing for humans to do, and it serves as a survival mechanism. 

I couldn't agree with you more, for the most part.

I don't like to place people into boxes, either. I've been placed into many boxes--this still occurs.

I see the individual person, always, not what ethnic/neurological/racial/social group they belong to. I believe, wholeheartedly and completely, in assessing a person based upon his/her behavior towards myself and other people.

I do hope that there will be room for people on the Autistic Spectrum to "be themselves" within the workplace--that employers understand their neurological differences while esteeming them for doing their jobs well. I believe this will become more common, as advocacy begins to reap results, and as more people on the Spectrum acquire positions of leadership. I think the situation is probably more progressive in "first world" places other than the US.

I have neurological differences; there are times when I cannot restrain myself. I howl in the halls. I meow in my cubicle. I really have no social conscience at those times. Inevitably, I am thought of as being eccentric at best, negatively off the wall at worst. I'm fortunate in being able to adjust to my environment, and also to be a very useful worker.

I'm not one who believes people with depression could "snap out of it" in an immediate sense. I do believe, however, that one should strive toward a better vision through what may be termed "reality testing." Obviously, that doesn't always work--but the striving should still be occurring. Depressed people are desperately unhappy, and are locked into that unhappiness by a feeling that nothing could get them out of the abyss in which they are existing now.



If a working person with ASD's has "burnout," couldn't they hash it out, somehow, with either a therapist or a suitable friend who understands them?

I would agree that some people with ASD'S would have a difficult time of it in the workplace.

You're right, there is very little strict racial dichotomy. This is why the term "visible minority," as used in Canada, is much better than the terms we use here.

I would like to raise the olive branch (not the white flag )

I hope the guy gets a job quickly.