Discrimination by interviewers against people on the spectru

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I think you misunderstood... I know you must have had some failures, but what I meant is that you haven't failed with the job you have now. You've had it for many years. That says a lot.

It's been dicey often enough. Several near-meltdowns with a couple of co-workers would have done me in, except that the boss recognized right away that I was correct and that the others were just being stupid and belligerent. He also seems to respect people who stand up for themselves instead of whining about what others have done to them.

I've learned to keep a paper trail - a written and printed record of my actions and why I choose to do them. Also, I keep manuals on every piece of running gear and test equipment we use, so that if I don't know the answer right away, I know where to look it up. I've networked with people in similar positions in other divisions, and we trade knowledge and methods, as well as providing consultation on tough technical issues.

My job does not require me to be a "hand-holder" - I do not have to necessarily be sugary-nice to people, but only show a little respect and politeness. Nor does my job require me to be in personal contact with more than 3 people each day, unless I have to intervene in a dispute of how things should be done, or if there is a problem that no one else can solve.

Otherwise, every day has its own challenges, and priorities seem to change by the hour. But the trick is to never give up.

Now there's a job I might be able to do... Never giving up sounds easy enough in this case.

Actually 'WhoKnowsWhy' does have a point if the unemployment/underemployed rate for people on the spectrum is at 85-90%. (Google it if you don't believe me.) You just happen to be in the lucky minority.

I find it really, really funny that you think 30-40 year old aspies have somehow conquered autism and are living NT lives.

In reality they have probably spent most of their lives undiagnosed, failing at everything except the odd academic thing which they were brilliant at (great when not being bullied for being a social pariah, you get bullied for being a geek) and being chronically unemployed most of the time.

After 30 odd years of driving themselves into nervous breakdowns trying to cope with pretending to be normal and failing miserably with zero help, support or understanding from anyone, including their own family they may have just about figured out what is wrong with them...

But as far as magically getting over it when you reach 30,

Luck has nothing to do with it. I've worked hard to prepare myself for a labor market that is generally indifferent to the needs of Aspies - even before I knew that I was an Aspie, or even what AS was. Or would you rather that I posted something like...

"... oh, I'm so worthless! Every job is a challenge. Nobody likes me. Everybody is trying to make me look bad. They just don't understand. It's all their fault. I hate every one of them. They wear perfume that makes me gag. Their music is always too loud and gives me a migraine. They keep the lights too bright and my eyes are always watering. Why can't they just be nice? They're always laughing about something, and it's most likely me. I'm pathetic. This is my twenty-seventh full-time job since I turned 18. They all have friends. They're so lucky. I only have a wife. Poor, pitiful me. My children know more than I do, and they did it just to annoy me. My neighbor's dogs stare at me and I'm afraid to look out the window. I'd be better off dead. There is no one more worthless then I ..."

... I suppose I'd make posts like that in every forum and thread if I had given up on myself before I'd even left my parents' home; but quitters are losers, and I never want to earn the title of "Loser".

BINGO!

We havvah winnah!

But Fnord, as you have outlined in your posts, all your occupational problems have either been due to interpersonal problems, or because you were working with ***holes. But some aspies have genuine performance problems.

I used to be ok at getting jobs, and I would most of the time get on with co-workers, but it was the doing of the job I found difficult. Performance issues led to my burnout, not anything to do with people.

Fnord, what are Aspies who don't have an aptitude for math/science supposed to do? I mean MAYBE there are Aspies who have successful careers in non-technical fields, but I sure don't know of any.

I honestly have not one freekin clue.

Our global culture once turned from agriculture to industry; now it seems to be turning from industry to technology. From there, what? Information? Communication? Entertainment?

Bread and Circuses?

Whatever it is, people need to prepare themselves for it now, or risk being left behind forever.

I never said it was magic, but you can get socially "better" over time, it just takes pretty much your whole life. Most people however do not experience this change. Look it up yourself.

I seem to preface a lot of my posts this way, but I don't want to mislead anyone. I have TS and OCD, not Asperger's or Autism. That being said:

I have worked at several jobs and done the hiring for a couple of others where I think someone with Asperger's would do quite well:

Library Clerk - This was honestly one of my favorite jobs. It doesn't require a lot of interaction with other people, and when you do interact a lot of the standard social expectations aren't there. Most of the time I spoke with patrons, it was things like, "Where's the restroom?" In a library you aren't expected to converse or show "proper" body language. Quietly nodding and gesturing in the right direction is typically enough. Eye contact does help, but it's not required. In the two years I did this I probably interacted with fewer than twenty patrons.

Picture Framer - There are two broad categories of positions in a frame shop: sales and labor. For sales you need an excess of social skills. Someone brings in something that looks like dryer lint stuck to wet cardboard, and you still have to say, with a completely straight face, "I think a letterbox frame with a solid mat board backer would best accentuate your piece," instead of blurting out, "That looks like dryer lint on wet cardboard!" For labor your job is to chop molding, cut mats, cut glass, and put everything together, typically in a back room. It's perfectly acceptable to be in the middle of building out a frame and say, "Is this dryer lint?" It's equally acceptable not to say anything at all, and not to respond when one of your co-workers says, "That's dryer lint!"

Copy Editor - I worked at a newspaper doing proofreading. My job was to circle misspelled words with a red pen. And feed the cat. The paper had a cat. Go figure. Excellent attention to detail was a requirement. Except for the cat, social skills weren't even on the list. This would have been as much fun as shelving books in the library, except the owner was constantly concerned the place was going to go bankrupt. If you go for an editing job, try to work somewhere that's established.

Data Entry - I did this for a temp agency. There are ALWAYS data entry jobs. Each morning we each got our stack of purchase forms we had to enter into the database. By lunchtime you hoped your stack was mostly gone. After lunch, we each got a new stack of purchase forms. The job requirements were the ability to type, the ability to read fairly legible handwriting, and the ability to not go out of your mind from sheer boredom. Trust me, shelving books is a lot more adventurous. But again, social skills were not a huge requirement for this job. If you were socializing, you weren't typing. Yes, supervisors actually said this from time to time.

IT - This took a lot more in terms of social skills than you might imagine. I'm not listing any one particular job because I was in the field for a long time. But 90% of IT work is taking the customer by the hand, desperately forcing down the urge to tell them to just box their computer back up and never use it again, and finding creative ways to tell them it'll be ok. I learned to hate the phone. The benefit with IT is that people who are really good with computers are often not really good with people. This is almost an accepted social fact, so there's some leeway.

(IT is the only field in which I've ever been a hiring manager. I did have an Aspie working for me. They did disclose, but that was about the same time I disclosed to them that their manager twitched for a reason. So no, I wasn't immediately prejudiced against them and only hoped they wouldn't be prejudiced against me. We all got along, so everyone came out ok in that encounter.)

Technician - I've done this in a couple of different environments. Each had its own description of what constituted a "good fit" for the job. In one of them I was the only person working on the project. Attention to detail and meticulous literature searches were what was needed. I interacted with workbenches, machine tools, and a fume hood, but very rarely with people. In another I was part of a team people all working on a number of projects. Fully half my time was spent interacting with others. It varies. The only way to find out about a particular job is to interview for it and ask lots of questions.

I was only ever a hiring manager in IT, but I have interviewed people for almost all of these. In almost every case we looked for these, in no particular order:

#1 - Enthusiasm for the job: If someone comes in the door uninterested in the work or acting like it is beneath them, eventually they will leave. All the time you spent training them for the work is wasted. I don't care how good someone is. If I get the feeling they're going to bolt the second something new comes along, I'm not inclined to hire them.

#2 - An inquisitive nature: I LOVE it when candidates ask questions. Even a simple one like, "How do you like working here?" is good. When going into any interview, line up some questions of your own. Remember that as much as they're interviewing you to see if you're a fit for their job, you are also interviewing them to see if they are an employer you'd like to work for.

#2b - If a candidate has had a phone screening, and is then called in for an interview, I like if they've done some research in the interim. Let's say the job is to maintain an assembly line that makes Spotted Doohickeys. It's fine if they've never heard of them during the phone screen. But by the time they come to the interview I either want them to be able to tell me what a Spotted Doohickey is and how it's used, or to be able to say, "You know, I tried a Google search on Spotted Doohickeys, but I couldn't find much. Can you describe what they are and what they're used for?"

#3 - Enthusiasm for something outside the job: I don't care if you have Asperger's, Autism, TS, OCD, whatever, something interests you. Maybe not to the degree that someone with Asperger's can delve into a special interest, but everyone geeks out on something. I like to see candidates talk about their own interests. I don't judge them on what they are. I just want to know what their level of enthusiasm and passion CAN be.

As a quick aside, this last one is something every manager should eventually find out about their employees. Let's say you have an employee who lives for the weekend, when they can drive their rocket powered dragster in NHRA events. Then don't schedule them on the weekend! And if they have a big event coming up, cut them a little slack on their schedule. Knowing what makes a person tick so that employees stay happy is important. Not every manager gets this, but they should.

#4 - Skill for the job: If I'm hiring an electrical engineer, they need to have an EE degree, they need to have experience doing EE in the workplace, and I need to see some references I can call to verify that they really do know their stuff. All the enthusiasm in the world doesn't help you pick up electrical engineering if you don't already have that skill set.

#5 - Are they easy to get along with: This is probably where people with Asperger's or Autism do get burned during an interview. But it really is important for a number of jobs. The thing is, I find people with Asperger's easier to get along with than someone who's an overbearing egotist. I can handle shy. I can handle socially awkward. I can handle someone who communicates through email better than they do face-to-face because it gives them time to organize their thoughts. I can't handle a co-worker who goes out of their way to make the people around them look bad so they look better. Other people will have different definitions of whom they can get along with, but it's not an immediate strike against someone with Asperger's or Autism.

#6 - A willingness to go the distance: This ties back in with a lot of what Fnord has been saying. People want co-workers who won't let them down in a pinch. Raw determination and a willingness to jump in goes a long way. The times we've hired at my current job, one of the things I ask for is that we get someone who, when the boss says, "Grab your sidearm and get down that foxhole, Forrest!" will by golly grab their sidearm and get down the @#^% foxhole! (Yes, this is a reference to a scene from Forrest Gump. Sorry, but that character was the epitome of willingness to go the distance.) The work I do doesn't involve sidearms or foxholes, but it often does involve hard physical labor under pretty grueling conditions. There have been days when we're fourteen or fifteen hours on the job, and the only way we get to go home is if someone grabs a cable and crawls fifty feet into a welded steel crawlspace that's ten degrees below freezing. I want co-workers who will grab the cable and get crawling, not co-workers who say it's too cold, too far, too hard, too whatever. Git 'r DONE!


Sorry for the ramble. The original poster asked a pretty broad question. To sum up: Yes, there are jobs someone with Asperger's can do, and do well. No, not all of these are technical jobs (see Library Clerk, Picture Framer, Copy Editor, etc.) It's possible that an interviewer may discriminate when they learn you have Asperger's, but that's not always going to be the case. In some cases a candidate with Asperger's will be a better fit than a more stereotypical "normal" candidate. Yes, there are things you can do during an interview that may cost you a job. This isn't reserved for people with Asperger's or Autism. Anyone can shoot themselves in the foot. There are also things you can do during an interview that can get a hiring manager to sit up and take notice. Having a flashy smile, a steady gaze, and a firm handshake isn't one of these things. Asking pertinent questions is.

And in case anyone is wondering, a work history that shows big blocks of unemployment is a massive strike against you in an interview. It has nothing to do with having Asperger's, Autism, TS, OCD, or what have you. Having a big block of unemployed time in a resume makes an employer wonder if this person will do any work once they're hired. If the risk is too great, they're going to say no even if you're the perfect candidate otherwise. Take an entry-level position. Sign up at a temp agency (something that has kept me employed more than once!) Do SOMETHING.

Yep, I can so relate. I'm over 40, far from NT, and have driven myself into breakdowns and depression by my desire to "be normal" like everyone else, and "succeed". I am currently under-employed, but at least I have a job - even if many of my superficial workmates want little to do with me - apart from gossip and giggle value

Hi Fnord,

Did you tell me, in equivalent words, that I was in "the lucky minority" when I cited statistics about Asperger's Syndrome being moderately correlated with being in an above average IQ grouping?

In another forum, it was argued just about the opposite with the mention of "unlucky":

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4150923.html#4150923

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4151701.html#4151701

As usual, with the demand "when disputing statistics, can you please back your claims up with a source?" is much met, then zero response.

After university, with a totally unsuccessful employment search, I started to collect as much information and details as possible before I officialy sought "administrative remedies" under federal law. I ended up with about 1,000 trials. For me, if an employer is informed about any impairment, responses to resumes and applications decline by 50% (with no listed impairment notice, I was getting a 100% response rate), and when the employers noticed my impairments in an oral interview, I received a 100% rate of rejection. With some of the job openings, the employers decided to leave the remaining job positions vacant when I was the only qualified job applicant still available (with federal employers, the MSPB requires substantiated & documented objections to a registered applicant's listing on certificates of eligibile candidates, and with me, no employer made such an objection, but "Catch-22" was prevalent).

I also received many lectures just about the opposite of your advice of not to practice "Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me" refrains. A determinative lecture I received from the State was that impairments with less frequency rates than the unemployment rate met no job success without extraordinary circumstances with special and rare accommodating jobs, and advice that a person with impairments shouldn't be in denial of the effects of their impairments with pursuit of difficult, and very rarely met, goals. I didn't take that advice in going to university, and I graduated magna cum laude. I didn't take that advice in searching for jobs and an ultimate career, and the federal courts told me to accept reality and live off subsistence disability without wasting other employers' and the courts' time and resources. I still believe that discrimination is the largest roadblock, but then most all prejudiced people who practice discrimination will blame the individual for "choosing" to have impairments from an impairment and not dealing with responsibility through nothing but "happy & optimistic" denial.

I still like the satirical "suck it up" cartoon at:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/ ... nimgC.html
and the obit:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/28/arts/ ... lahan.html

Tadzio

I'm 30 and I've just got my first graduate job. I've been looking on and off for 4.5 years since my PhD and spent most of that feeling severely depressed about it and having sleep problems. I have been able to find low level admin work fairly easily such as secretary despite the fact these jobs often have reasonable people contact. In fact I think sticking out these jobs has taught me social skills I didn't have 5 years ago on my PhD just through experience. I have only just been diagnosed and have had specialist help from an Aspergers employment centre. My new employer knows I have Aspergers although partially disclosed at first. They are a public sector employer more open to this sort of thing.

I think legally if you can get the job you can tell the employer afterwards. However, I find that interview is my weakness despite feeling I am good at the job selling myself in a social situation with multiple people is a struggle.
I think it helped focussing on my AS traits such as attention to detail and written skills. I got an adjustment of getting the interview questions written down a few minutes before the interview and this has really helped. I asked for a quieter room to do a written test as they suggested reception. It is reasonable to ask questions about the form of the interview if you can't work it out e.g. what does that test involve, what form is the interview, who is interviewing me?

If you don't get the job it could be due to experience or skills. There are a lot of NT graduates struggling to get any sort of job due to the economy at the moment. I came a close second in a few jobs so did really well and was perfectly capable of the job, just they had to pick someone. One of these did come down to a roleplay situation and I got a less people based job with the same employer.

One last thought, my husband was interviewing someone for an IT job. Through me he realised one of the final 2 candidates had Aspergers (e.g. stimming/eye contact). They didn't disclose (may not have known) and he couldn't make any allowances. Their communication skills were weaker but another skill was much stronger. It went to the other candidate as overall their skills were better.