Just been fired - next steps?

Post Reply New Topic

It's possible. It could indicate that they were looking for a reason (which is what I suspected anyway).


No, I was the latest out of all of them. The latest I had seen anyone come in was 11:20, and the day I was fired I got there at 11:35. They had asked me in writing to be there at 10:30.


This is a good insight. I've often been frustrated by this. One of my coworkers behaved this way in response to points i had about their product redesign. I just figured that he was giving me nonsensical answers because his job was to get the product moving, rather than get it right. The fact that NTs may think a certain way may be illogical or unfair, but I don't think it means they aren't entitled to think that way if a business wants to function that way.


I didn't think of it that way. During a previous conversation I was criticized for not speaking up when I was sidelined on a project.


That sounds about right. But at the same time I didn't have to be as combative as I was.


I'm really hoping to find something in the same field, and I want to preserve the reference from my previous employer.

I just realized there's another explanation for all this, ignoring the fact that this was made harder by Asperger's.

I was the only designer on a team of programmers. I'm thinking I need to find a design firm so I can work with other designers.

You see, you have been suspecting YOURSELF that it has nothing to do with your being late; yet you were working so hard telling me that it does. This seems to indicate that you are lying TO YOURSELF. While you KNOW your being late is not an issue, you are telling yourself that it is in order to convince yourself not to do anything about it. Well stop lying to yourself.

Perhaps if you won't be so busy trying to put yourself under a mental anesthetic you would also agree with me that you are being treated unfairly. Your whole entire argument that it was fair was hanging on a statement that you were late. You even said yourself in the previous reply



Especially look at the word "only" (put in bold). So you told me previously that

1) Latedness was the ONLY thing you did wrong

and you are telling me now that

2) You have "suspected yourself" that latedness is not the real reason

Now combine 1 and 2, and use logic. If both 1 and 2 is correct, the logical conclusion is that they fired you without any legitimate reason. This is called discrimination.



The difference between 11:20 and 11:35 is VERY TINY given that both of you are approximately an hour late compared to 10:30. If the other person is 50 minutes late and you are 65 minutes late, this is approximately the same on the scale of one hour. The fact that the other person was not in trouble only proves the point that you were discriminated against.



And if you are frustrated by this, this is EXACTLY why you should sue them. Don't you see? You admit yourself they act unfair, yet you passively sit here and take it all in.



What do you mean "the business wants to function that way". Is "business" even an alive object in order to have any wants? If you are referring to productivity, then being illogical never helps anyone. If you are referring to wants of individuals, then what if they "want" to skip job? The kind of vague concept you just referred to is precisely what NT-s use when they misjudge aspies.



You should have said you didn't know it. By the way you mentioned in the previous post that there is a "rule" that people have to speak up. I don't think there is that general rule. Some bosses might just care about items A, B, and C being done as opposed to keeping people busy; in some cases they might be even angry if they are bothered unnecessarely. The way to see in which cases you are expected to speak up and in which you aren't is to be able to pick up on social cues. And this is precisely what aspies are bad at.

So when you were criticized you should have pointed out to them that you only are good at following "written rules" but you are clueless when it comes to "unwritten" ones. So you simply didn't know. Furthermore, you should have told them that now that they have informed you about this "unwritten rule" you will begin to follow it. So that would have been a good argument for a second chance: you didn't know before but you know now.



Based on what I see from this thread, I highly doubt you were combative. I think you assume that you have to be very passive and take everything in; thats why whenever you say one extra word you immediately assume you are combative for saying it. And this is your exact mistake. You have to realize that if you are mistreated you have every right to defend yourself.



If the previous employer have fired you, their reference won't be good anyway. On the other hand, if you can persuade your previous employer to get you back in, THEN you can change your working style and eventually change his impression as he sees a new pattern. That is another reason to try to get that job back.



This is just another excuse you make for them which you know perfectly well is not true. If they didn't need a designer they won't have hired you. And if you are the only designer, they are in quite a bit of trouble without you since they no longer have anyone to carry out that specific job for them.

Look you know perfectly that this is not the real reason. It seems like you are just trying to make yourself feel better and are trying to convince yourself of various things that would serve your agenda of making excuses for them.

I agree with most of what you're saying, and thank you for validating my perspective, but if they told me in writing to be there at 10:30 and I wasn't, I don't think that the other person coming in at 11:20 counts as discrimination. Also, he only came in one day at 11:20. I don't know if that was normal for him. I do know that developers in general had been told (also in writing) to be there at 11. So when they told me to be in at 10:30, I suspect that they wanted me to be there by 11. The other guy gets a grace period because he's senior staff, and he puts in a lot more hours in general. That's not discrimination; that's seniority.

Life is unfair. I think I could have had a discrimination case if I weren't late, but it is what it is.

My boss said he would give me a recommendation for any job except for one working in databases. Which is fair considering my mistake. They were very patient with me in general otherwise. And to be honest, even if I did get the job back, given what duties they wanted me to handle, I don't know if I could succeed there given what has happened. The level of attention I would have to pay to the work to avoid repeating that mistake would be a source of stress in itself. Things there are always changing, and if I didn't get that one thing wrong it would be another. It's just a bad place for an Aspie to be in general.

Whatever argument I could make about following unwritten rules is undermined by the fact that I disobeyed a written one. Also, when they said I should speak up when I was sidelined, I didn't act on that information (but I didn't feel like I was in a position to speak up either).

Maybe I'm just playing the good victim, I don't know. It could be worth telling the story to a lawyer to check. But so few people in this country get a chance to work as late in the morning as I did, and fewer would understand why I could claim discrimination when I came in later than that.

They hired three people to essentially replace me. One does Web site updates; the other two code and know a little bit of design on the side.

It's clear that design wasn't a business priority for them, and I couldn't sell them on it. The latter is also a failure on my part—expected, though, given my level of experience at the time.

They also had a print designer they were trying to use to design their software, but they were having a rough go of it. Again I was being sidelined, and again I didn't speak up, though I did ask to be included on the project in an e-mail. I don't know.

Anyway, I have an appointment with my therapist tomorrow. I'll see what he thinks. But he has said he doesn't want to be involved in lawsuits. The structure and management of that place made it a difficult place for anyone to be, Aspie or not. I think it's for the best I'm gone.

This is the proof right there that the mistake was not the "last straw" at all. And this is a good place to argue with him. How does he know you are bad at databases if the mistake was an accident? Everyone makes mistakes from time to time.



No its not fair.

1. Everyone makes mistakes

2. Even if others never made this kind of mistake, you can still learn your lesson and realize you should pay attention more. The boss can't just assume you will never learn.



It sounds like they deliberately put stricter standard on you than on others in order for you to break it at some point so that they can get rid of you.

This by the way is a good written prove of discrimination. Ask another employer to take xerox copy of their notice about 11 PM, and keep your own notice about 10:30 PM. Then go to the lawyer and show him both notices. This will be an evidence that they treated you differently than the other employer.



And how about all the other ones being late?



You can still provide evidence of discrimination:

1) Find someone else who is NOT a senior but still comes late. Point out that he still has a job

2) That notice which says 11 for others and 10:30 for you



It doesn't sound like a lack of skills at all. It sounds a lot more that you are simply giving up on yourself. Just like you are giving up now that you are fired, perhaps there were some other "version" of giving up that you started long before having been fired. That is probably why you weren't responsive to what you were told and so forth. So stop assuming you can't do something. Change your attitude and actually put effort into things. You might just find yourself successful.



Yes you do. And this is your main mistake.



Go ahead and do that!



You are not competing with everyone in your country. You are competing with people at your job.

And the "lateness" can actually be in your favor. Imagine the following conversation. First you tell someone how late everyone are and don't mention your trouble. Then they are shocked about it and call your people lazy and so forth. And THEN you mention that you were fired. After that they would say "what right does the lazy so and so has to fire you for things like that; he better take a look at himself first". And then they will immediately be on your side.

Thats another excuse. How can you say that place makes it difficult if it is one of the few places that allows people to come so late?

I'll private message you to explain

Now that I think of it, there was a junior employee who arrived an hour late once. There was a meeting at 10 and he showed up at 11. But no matter. I was given more chances than he was.

And given my work output, I think they would call me lazy before the other guys. I had lots of ideas, they were just in my head and I couldn't always get them out. I had lots of sketches of things, but no one willing to act on them.

Anyway, it's a bad situation and I'd rather put it behind me. I don't know if it makes sense to keep reliving it. We'll see.

I think that once they asked you *in writing* to be in at a certain hour, you were already toast. And I think a law suit would make anybody's life hell. Onward and upward seems best to me. Have you ever thought of night shift? People tell me the social stuff is at a minimum and it's quiet.

I love night shift jobs! I'm not a morning person in the least. My favorite job so far was an internship I had at a newspaper, and I was able to work 6 p.m. - 2 a.m. I could take care of errands during the day and sleep in. It was a dream.

Unfortunately, newspaper jobs are hard to come by these days, and what few remain are very demanding. They require you to move at a quick pace, and I'm used to refining ideas over time. I'm thinking software design is the right field for me, even if it requires social interaction.

The jobs at a newspaper also tend to require interfacing with other editors and writers. Come to think of it, I remember struggling with that during my internship! haha … that was before I knew I had Asperger's. I remember it was less of an issue with my generational peers.

The thing about design is that designers are supposed to be quirky and different, and I am really good at it. So I hope to refine my skills somewhere that appreciates them. At this company it was an afterthought.

I worked at a big law firm - they had a night shift. I think these days, any field might have a night shift, especially for computer stuff. And they might not bother to advertise it - as you say, it's a dream job for people suited to it.

I've found that Personnel or Human Resources or whatever they're calling it these days is worth avoiding for first contact. If you can find a night shift, then find the boss of the night shift, then talk to that boss - you might find somebody on the same wave length. I've done that, it works very well if the person you're going to work for asks them to hire you. Worth a shot, maybe?

Line up a dozen or so if you can - it reduces anxiety to know you're not going after the only job on earth.

Good to know, thanks. I've definitely been working on making a list! It helps that a couple on my list include workplaces that have friends I know already working there.

And that is a compliment.

That might be a good way to do it.

Another way, is to send HR a resume first for formality. And then the money question, ask the person who would be your immediate boss, 'I've already sent HR a copy of my resume. May I send you a copy also?' This way, you aren't putting them on the spot of potentially going against HR.

Both of these rest on unstated social norms of politeness, of when it's best to directly ask for something you want and when it's best to be indirect, which I often have trouble reading.

Maybe experiment with both and see which feels better.