Blaming parents for not having a job

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Um, sure!! ! I also have some swampland in Dumpwater, FL to see you for Five Million. If these things worked for you I applaud and I commend you. I may have to move to your area then. For me, voc rehab said they couldn't do anything for me and sent me to the autism center. Each session there is $80 per hour. Are the disabled being provided the work skill aid and placement by society? If yes, who are the providers? Can you please be more specific? Do they have to pay for this work skill aid and placement? How does one show and demonstrate perserverance? If one does not have certain tools and he needs these tools to obtain a job then how does he obtain these tools? Let's say these tools cost money or resources he would have to pay for himself then how can he buy the tools with money he does not have. He would need a job to have money. It is called a catch-22. Why is it "I" who always has to demonstrate perserverance? What is your reasoning for this? One can perservere at pushing a rock back and forth all day but yet it accomplishes nothing. If it is accomplishing nothing why would one continue to perservere? Why is it always noble and good to perservere?

I have more questions. What is the employment rate and the retention rate for these so called programs of those who graduate them? Can we have actual statistics?

When does one stop and when does one quit doing the very thing that is causing him major stress and has accomplished nothing? When do we say enough is enough? Many NTs have had major problems obtaining jobs as well. Some of them have sent 100s of resumes and cover letters with nothing to show for it. Guess what? One has to take personality tests in order to work at a lot of places today. I do not understand some of the questions on these tests and the questions I do understand the answers depends upon their context and individual situations. Here is another thing. If you do not meet the criteria for these tests you are automatically out of the running. Will these so called work skill aid and placement help him to interpret the questions on these personality tests? If he has to pay how much more would he have to pay? Is society going to provide these things to him and I or do we have to pay with money that we're supposed to obtain ourselves by obtaining and doing work that we are not trained nor fit to do? If it is the latter how do we do this?

I believe this is what I would need to be sucessful in society. I won't get it though because of the extreme belief of the internal locus of control that exists in this country so I'm just blowing hot air to the wind.

1. I would need 8 hours per day 5 days per of occupational thearpy, physical therapy, and social skills training. I think I would need it for about five years give or take.

2. I would need people to sit down with me and answer my questions in intricate detail.

3. Objective tests including appitude provided to me to truthfully see what I am mentally and physically capable of doing in which my attitude is factored out. These tests wouldn't matter what I believed or if I had a positive or negative attitude. In addition, tests to determine if I have any diseases or genetic abnormalities.

4. I would need the workplace explained to me in intricate detail by the employers themselves.

Will I get these? Nope because it is true that I am literally entitled to nothing including the ability to take responsibility itself and in fact I don't even get the empty set as a conciliation prize as well. It is also not true that life is fair and the reason it is not true is because people believe this statement to be true causing a circular loop and a paradox. To get myself out of the logical paradox I believe I would need these things and I believe this kid would need them as well. The "village" would have to bring both of us into their metaphorical fold. If our lives are to improve then this extreme internal locus of control that you and other responsibility advocates hold dear needs to be challenged. Your values and beliefs need to be challenged. If all of this is false why is it false?

Personal responsibility only works to a certain extent and this is because I'm only in control of my life to a certain extent. We live in society in which things are interconnected and interdependent. He and I are not Q in Star Trek. We don't have control over time and space. None of us are gods. You have the belief that one can pull himself up by his bootstraps. The modern interpretation of this is wrong. It was a metaphor to show how impossible it could be for one to pull himself out of his or her circumstances. During the colonial period and later it wasn't every man for himself. People pulled together to survive. IMHO, you have certain beliefs, values, and standards which need to be challenged because they are taken to an extreme that should not be taken to. Your beliefs, values, and standards are not the answer to our problems. Because of the extremeness of them, your beliefs, values, and standards are a blight and a disease that is wrong with this country today. They're based upon a bygone era that never truly existed in the first place.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 16 Jul 2012, 3:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

I believe the previous poster is me. You're so correct on this. Part of the Elders role in a given society is to train the children in the way they're supposed to go. http://www.biblestudytools.com/rsv/proverbs/22.html The elders of America wonder why there is no respect from children today. Maybe the reason is because the elders are not training up the child, not only with punishment but with instruction as well. This goes for jobs as well. One has to be rotely taught how to obtain a job and do the job. If a parent wants their child to show respect then it is the responsibility of the parent to show and rotely instruct the child how to do this in various situations including emergency. There are times a child can disobey their parents and even with this they have to be taught how to be humble about it. Humility has to be taught as well. The elders of today expect their children to figure it out themselves. This goes against biblical teachings. A lot of people in America claim to be christains but do not follow the words they preach especially the elders. The elders provoke their children to anger which is a big no no in the bible.



Yet, you got guys like Charles Sykes with his 50 rules about life who say that the schools say and teach the complete and utter opposite.
Your experience seems to support some of the things I say and what these responsibility advocates preach is bull f*****g s**t. The truth is my friend we live in a country in which insanity rules the day. If you are a sane person living in a country or land in which the inhabitants are insane what does this make you? I believe these quotes by various authors will shed some light on this.

http://www.cancertutor.com/Quotes/Quotes_Insanity.html



It is because the whole country has gone insane.

Hilarious. I almost thought that was serious reply at first.

You might still have a choice, but that does not mean you know any better........I mean I myself cannot blame my school or mom for 'making' me go to college. But I can certainly blame them for coercing me to go and trying to convince me it was 'the' option for high school graduates. I mean I honestly did not know any better at that age so I went and failed miserably......I guess i did consider working but there were no jobs within walking distance of my moms house and I didn't exactly have transportation.

It would be ridiculous for me to beat myself up over going to college due to it being my choice......when in reality I was misinformed and coerced so those responsible for that share some of the blame like it or not.

So another words, anyone who disagrees with your 'infallible' opinion cannot possibly be serious?

You're right, it is Hilarious. It is Hilarious that you come back with just a one line soundbite. Why don't you answer my questions that I have asked of you. Can you prove that what you believe is viable? If I am wrong, then why am I wrong?

You sound like a lot of people on many different forums who give vapid and empty one line soundbites. Can you provide more of an intricate analysis of your beliefs please and why you truthfully believe that your beliefs are viable? Do you believe it is the way it is in America? My question is why is this this way? Why do you believe it must be this way? Do you truthfully believe this is the best that humanity can do? I don't believe that. I believe humanity can do better.

Do you believe life is unfair and I must accept that? Why must I accept that? When I look on different boards I see that many people are unhappy with the state of affairs in America. If many people are unhappy at the status quo then why do they accept the status quo? Why don't anyone want to do anything about it? Deep down, are you happy as well? Edgewaters, are you happey either? Couldn't it be possible that life is unfair because people accept that and refuse to budge to even change this? Any individual who has tried to challenge the BS that happens in America is shot down? Why are they shot down? Do we not have a paradox here? If I am wrong then please show me. ooo, how successful have you been at keeping and getting jobs yourself?

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 21 Jul 2012, 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm going to add to what you say Sweetleaf and sweeten the pot. Yes, you do always have a choice. In fact, one can technically choose to do nothing and choose not to choose. ooo is refuting what you say with a tautology. The truth is ooo is so full of s**t. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic) Technically, he is correct. There is no way one can truthfully not choose.

Here is the fine print. There are some choices that will have no positive outcomes at the end. It does not matter what someone does sometimes. They will end up at the same place which is called hell(Figure of speech). Neither you nor I have a choice that leads to a positive outcome as far as we perceive. If anyone can refute us and show us where we are both wrong then please by all means show us. ooo You're the most profound person I have ever met. Your wisdom and your knowledge is mind blowing. So, how about show us what you know ooo.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 21 Jul 2012, 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Honestly, I believe we're wasting our time. We are not changing this guy or anyone else's minds on their beliefs like this. This kid needs to make up his own mind and question things himself. In my opinion, he needs to go ahead and claim disability and any other welfare benefit. It is not because he can't do work but because of s**ts like ooo. Don't take my word for it. I did the "rehab" program like ooo said and in the end they said they couldn't do anything for me. This is if we're even talking about the same thing I would recommend him to do his own homework and come to his own conclusions. A person can do different things to make himself or herself pleasing to the employer. In the end it is up to the employer whether they will hire this kid or not or in fact any of us. This kid, you, and I can only control our own actions. We can't control what other people will do or how they will feel about us. Yes, We can all put on a dog and pony show but in the end it is up to the employer if you are hired or not. Another example is this. A person who is fat can think of herself as beautiful but other people may not think so. She does not have control over what people think or do. It is the same with us. We do not have 100% control over the properties time and space.

We can influence people and try to persuade but in the end it is up to the others whether they will accept the message or not or buy the product or not. It is the same with employers. They do not hire solely by ability alone. They hire by personality and appearance first. They have certain criteria both stated and unstated of what they desire. Even my voc rehab program instructors told me this. Your personality Sweetleaf is a part of who you are. It is a part of your identity. Part of it comes from nature or your genetics and part of it comes from nurture or how you were raised. I believe this is documented theory by the science and medical communities.

Here is where the problem comes in. Because part of our identity comes from genetics I believe there are some people who can never meet the employers personality requirments no matter how hard they work at it. There are a lot of people out there who seriously believe that it is 100% nurture. Please read what this guy says. http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Attitude_Fanatics.htm

One life lesson I have learned is you can't change a fanatic's mind no matter what logic or emotions you use. A lot of people in America believe in certaint things like positivity and this internal locus of control. No matter what logic you use you will not dissuade them from their beliefs. Employers are a reflection of this. Another lesson I have learned is the true golden rule of the world and that is he who owns all of the gold makes all of the rules. These corporations hold all of the cards and keys. They guard all of the doors and they're the ones who select who comes in and who stays out. These folks who are in charge and those who support them are fanatics. You will not reason with them or persuade them to what you belief. We aspies are a tiny minority. A lot of aspies believe in their system and their beliefs as well. We are a minority of a minority. There are NTs who see things wrong with these beliefs and standards as well. It is my opinion that we can't fight them. We are like guppies in a sea of sharks. We are like Davids compared to these Goliaths. We are like insects to them. Fighting will fail and a number of us have been trying to do this. They are fanatics who will not listen to you. Figuring them out and trying to fake our way in does not work either. A person can't be something he or she is not. It will eat away at you over time. I've tried this and ended up almost going insane and questioning my own identity. It is my opinon that we need to read Mr. Harry Browne's book "How I found freedom in an unfree world" and start following his principles. http://www.bazkhani.com/wp-content/uplo ... _world.pdf



Eventually Sweetleaf, I think it is time for those of us who can't get jobs to have a serious meeting of some kind. This isn't just for the autism spectrum. This is for the unemployed who have been that way for a long time. I think it is time for all of us to somehow save up what money we have and leave society altogether. Maybe we need to either go to another society or form our own. I believe Fnord did say that Occupy Las Angeles was offered a deal. They should have taken the deal. IMHO, if we don't have to fight then why fight?

No one forces anyone to go to college, or whatever. It's not their fault a person is misinformed or unaware of their options.

As an adult, you research and inform yourself of your options, whether college, vocational rehab, career paths, and so on.

Your life = your responsibility.

You want a job, you research what the requirements are and prepare for them. Whether it's by going to college, getting training in a career field, getting social skill training, or whatever. Then, you study, volunteer, be an intern, or follow whatever steps are needed to get a job in that field and do them. With the proper training and education for a job, sometimes paired with volunteer experience, you can get a job in your field.

"Humanity" can only be better when people take responsibility for their own lives and stop blaming other people for their misguided educational, career, life decisions, lack of effort, or lack of research and perseverance to follow whatever career path you choose.

So if a school misinforms a graduating student about college in an effort to coerce them to go, that school then is not at fault for mis-informing the student? Also in my case it did not seem there were really any other options to consider it was college or nothing so it seemed. So yeah I made the choice to go to college, but that does not mean I was not misinformed by the school or pressured by my mom....it is possible without those factors I would have decided on something else.

No one is saying people are not responsible for their own lives.........but what you expect people not to get angry if they are more or less coerced to do something and then it only blows up in their face? Its funny you say people should take responsibility yet at the same time you say if a school or parent plays a role in someone making a not so great choice then they share no responsibility at all.....looks like a contradiction.

You're right no one does hold a gun to anyone's head. One can be pressured to go especially if one tries to be dutiful and honorable to elders especially their parents. For some kids, if parents tell them to go they will go because they feel duty bound to obey. We have conflict of values of duty to honor and obey one's parents and being responsible for one self. This is if these are always considered positive and honorable values.

Why is it always wrong and ignoble to blame society at all for anything no matter the circumstances? What is your logical reasoning and rationale for this? Do you consider America as the epitome of perfection? By what you write I assume you believe that everyone causes their own circumstances they're in no matter what ocurred. Is this correct? By your own reasoning and if taken to its logical conclusion if I get food poisoning it is my own fault that I did not test my own meat with scientific equipment I failed to buy myself and with the knowledge I lack? Is this what you are saying? Yes or No? What are the limits for responsibility to ourselves? How far does it go? What is your logical reasoning? Why do you believe that this level of internal locus of control that you want us all to have makes a viable society? Can you write a detailed analysis of your beliefs and how you derive them? What are your premises that you use derive your conclusions and beliefs from?



No, you don't especially if one believes that your parents and other elders have your best interests at heart, not lying, or not misinformed themselves. No, you don't especially if you trully feel honor bound to obey your parents in what they tell you to do. A duty bound child will not question his parents or those who have him as their charge. By the way, I have done my research after the fact to see what things I did do wrong. I did blame myself at first. For me, it was mostly and still is external factors. This is based upon what I've read and questions I have asked of other people. For me as well, it is more complicated. I am not only an aspie but I'm the type of aspie who needs to know why the sky is blue. You seem to just accept that the sky is blue and think nothing more of it.

Here is another problem. Let's say I got the social skills training and obtained what I needed. It may be prudent to do this for practical sakes but you're missing the bigger picture. I would have to pretend to be something I'm not. I would have to put on a persona that does not fit me at all. Shakespeare said in Hamlet



For me, it is a philosophical, moral and identity crisis. Where can I work where I can be true to myself including my aspieness and my personality? Would I be dishonorable by being dishonest and selling a false bill of goods? Are employers going to encourage me to lie and deceive for them? Will I have to do so for employers by practicality? Let's say I understand the employer's intent on their personality tests. Do I put truthful answers on these tests or do I lie? Does all of the workplace want this same persona? Well, I can't be something I'm not and I will not be dishonest. Employers deserve to get a good quality product not a dud. They deserve truth and honesty from me. If one has to deceive, lie, put on a dog and pony show of fake confidence and bravado then I not only socially can't do it but it goes against my own values and my own principles. If I can't be honest in my dealings with people and I'm not allowed to come to fundamental truths and state them then how would this be good for my soul? Yes, I would bring in income for myself if I followed America's social way but at what cost to my identity? Would I have to sell not just my own identity but my very own soul? Should I sell my own soul just to function and succeed in society? Do you see my problem now? Would you want this kid harmed or would you harm this kid? Neither would I? My question is, by making him do all of this are you enriching or harming his soul? It is my opinion that those who demand we be something we are not do not help us or benefit us but harm our very souls and our inner beings. This is my justification as to why I recommended the things I recommended to this kid. Sweetleaf, I reccommend the same things to you as well. Claim disability, and see if you can think outside of the box. You can't be something you are not either.

I've never thought of this before but I have now. I thought some NTs would make me drink metaphorical hemlock just like Socrates but I can see some aspies are the same exact way.

Let's talk in practicality. What research? What research is one supposed to do? I've already tried to do research. It is difficult for me to try to find something that I am able to truly comprehend and understand. When I ask questions all I receive is soundbite answers like you give. There are a lot of details in the research I have done that are missing. I'm always told to start at the bottom? Where is the bottom? Where can I find the workplace hierarchy and what are the intricate steps that one must do to get promotions? The workplace was presented in such a way that there were positions that existed and all you needed was a degree. This is how it was presented. This is one of the reasons for Occupy Wall Street.

What exactly is the real world? I don't even know what you and others even mean by the phrase "real world."



I will ask again. How is logically possible for one to be 100% responsible for his or her own life? Can you provide an intricate argument and your premises that support this conclusion?



So, what you're telling me is this. You're telling me that it is caveat emptor, am I correct? What this means is one can't trust his parents and other elders who are in charge of him or her, am I correct? One can't trust that they will give accurate information or even trust their parents or other elders will tell the truth, am I correct? Are parents and other elders following the biblical command of training the child up in the way they should go?



Again, how do you derive this to be true for all of humanity? How is possible for one to take 100% responsibility for their own lives? There are parts of humanity today who live the same way they did for thousands of years. Every part of the world has different cultures. How exactly do they follow your model and can you show me the premises that support this conclusion? How is it logically possible that the every man for himself type of setup makes a viable society? Can you state your premises that support your conclusion?

If one is persevering and doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results isn't it the very definition of insanity? This is a quote by Albert Einstein. Edison perservered at inventing the light bulb but he tried many different ways and different solutions. Did he not? Why would one continue to try to obtain a job in America, do research and obtain social skills training when one obtains the same results which is failure. They hire not by what you know but by who you know and your personality. I do not have the personality they want. Would it responsible of me to pretend to be something I am not, put on a fake dog and pony show, and sell them a false bill of goods or would I be considered a fraud, a liar, and a charlatan?

I will tell you what happened in my Junior year of High School. I will never forget this to my dying day. My teacher directly said that "if you do not pass the SATs you will not get into a good college. " In addition, my teacher said "If you don't get into a good college you will have no future." This was not implied. This was directly out of the jackass' mouth. If this was completely false why would he say this. I bet if you follow the money trail you will find the answer.

Why is it our fault that we were all told complete and utter lies by those who in charge of us? Why is it our fault and our responsibility to fix our own lives when we did actions and steps that were based upon untruths, deceptions, and lies and we were all pressured to commit to these things? NTs followed this model as well. It is said we expected it. They say what we did wrong was we expected a job. Of course we expected a job. This model was shoved down both my and Sweetleaf's throats since we were in diapers. It is continuing to be showed down the next generation's throat. Since we are talking responsibility where is the education system's responsibilty in all of this? Where is our parent's and grandparents generation responsibility in all of this? ooo, how much acid have you been dropping? I'm sorry but I call BS on the OP and those who say this kid should take responsbility.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 25 Jul 2012, 6:10 pm, edited 11 times in total.

Thank you Sweetleaf. Thank You. I like the word pressured a lot better. What about the elder's lack of responsibility in training the child up in the way they should go ooo? They shift the blame to the victim. It is called projection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

In fact, the elders will accuse your generation sweetleaf and mine of projecting when they're doing it themselves. A lot of what they say about youth is false. Go here http://youthfacts.org/ The truth is the boomer and the great generation are projecting their own neuroses and problems onto us.



I am. You have one detractor right here. I disagree with the statement that a person is 100% responsibile for their own lives. One only has control to a limited extent. This extent is what society, your family, and the physical laws of time and space allow. With employers, you can perform all of the song and dance you want but in the end it is up to the employer to sign on the dotted line and decide to hire you. You do not control what the employer does.

You're an adult.

Thus, you are responsible for verifying what school or people tell you.

If they told you wrong, the responsibility lies with YOU for not verifying facts before YOU make choices about YOUR life.

Sure, you might feel "pressure" to attend college. But, as an adult, no one is "forcing" you to go.

Why do people have to be responsible for their own lives? Because it's THEIR own life. Their life, their responsibly to support and provide for themselves.

Why is it wrong to blame society? Because adults make their OWN decisions and are responsible for THEIR own choices.
It's not societies fault, it's everyone's own fault if they make poor choices. That's called being a grown up.

Your poor choices or your misinformed choices are your fault, as you either didn't research or didn't make the right choice. That responsibility lies with YOU, not society. YOU made the decision and life choice, and regardless of what facts anyone told you, it was YOUR responsibility to research your college/life and make YOUR own informed decisions. Your life, your choices = your problem. Not societies.

Wrong again.

YOUR life is YOUR responsibility.

I don't care if you're misinformed-- it's YOUR responsibility to research your own choices as an adult.

Society is as screwed up, entitled, and lazy because people blame society-- when in fact they themselves are to blame.

Your life = your responsibility. It's up to YOU to verify facts, it's up to YOU to plan your life, and it's up to YOU to make wise choices. If you screw it up, only YOU are to blame.

Kids listen to their parents, while adults have the responsibility to make their OWN choices. 16-18 is considered an adult in most countries.
You can't blame society or parents-- your decisions as an adult are solely your responsibility.

Of course my poor choices are my fault, even so its still the schools fault they misinformed me about college....I chose to go so that's my fault but I am not the one who misinformed myself so I cannot very well blame that on myself as much as you think individuals should constantly beat themselves up over everything that goes wrong in their lives.........and you're still repeating yourself.

What is your reasoning for this? Why are all adults responsible for verifying what school and people tell you?



Again, what is your rationale behind this? Why does the responsibility lie with me to verify facts? Why isn't it their responsibility to make sure what comes out of their mouths is true? Does this mean that all con artists and scammers should not be punished fo what they do? Does this mean that if I get food poisioning it is my fault that I did not do my own testing? Another example, what you're telling me is if I buy a car the seller promotes it as more functional than it is really is it is my fault because I did not get it inspected from someone else? How do you verify his inspection? Do you verify the inspection of this inspection? Eventually, one will have to take certain things and what people say upon faith and say it is good enough. Why is it wrong to expect to take others at their word and expect them to tell the truth? How are your beliefs truthfully practical? How again, is it logically and practically possible to be 100% responsible for one's own life? What are you trying to say here? Forgetting whether this is humane or not, how does your ideology and cultish belief system even hold up in any kind of funadamental way and how is it truthfully viable for a successful society? It is my belief that your beliefs which include this extreme internal locus of control is one of the very rots of our society and another is this attitude fanaticism that this society holds dear. You believe I'm wrong than show me why I am wrong?



What is your definition of the word force? Where does the feeling of pressured come from?



What you stated as your answer is the definition of the word responsibility. It is a tautological response which does not answer the question as to the rationale behind it? Why do you believe and how do you derive that it is applicable in all situations?



Is society a collection of individuals with common beliefs and values? If yes, Why can't these collection of individuals make poor choices? both individually and as a massive group? Like you say it's everyon'e own fault if they make poor choices? Why couldn't it be possible that those in power and those who are over you make bad choices well? Couldn't these bad choices that those who are in power make affect you and others in a bad way? Therefore, why aren't these individuals responsible for the choices that they make that not only affect themselves but others as well? If the chickens come home to roost meaning if those in charge of you have to suffer because of providing misleading or wrong information then by your logic they're responsibile as well. If this is false then why? If all of the collections of individuals can be at fault then why can't society ever be at fault?



Again, if society is made up of a collection of people who have misleading, faulty information or society as a whole lies or commits fraud and society suffers as a result from this then why wouldn't ever be society's fault that individuals in this society get hurt? When your beliefs are taken to their logical conclusion then I ask why isn't society as a whole ever at fault for anything at all?

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 27 Jul 2012, 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.