Refering to females as "ladies" is dangerous in workplace

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funeralxempire
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24 Jun 2023, 5:12 pm

Recidivist wrote:

No, you said we should be hostile to 'damsel in distress...............' , I said that was a bad idea. :roll:

If you see someone engaging in it you should call it what it is rather than letting them get away with it. How is that a bad idea?

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funeralxempire
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24 Jun 2023, 5:17 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:

I agree these people exist and some of them are motivated by entitlement. That's the whole point. That's why racism exists, because some people think they should be more entitled to whatever it is they have or they think than other people. Using gender specifically, I just don't understand why we need to differentiate between a racist white man and a racist white woman, assuming all other things are equal and they both act like cry-bullies (good term, btw.) Removing gender and focussing on race we also have entitled people from non-white backgrounds who are racist against other ethnic groups who may be non-white. We could have a man and woman (let's say husband and wife), from one cultural background being entitled or elitist and racist toward another husband and wife from a different non-white cultural background.

Aren't all of these people equally racist and entitled, and don't they all deserve to be called racist?

I suppose all Karens aren't racist either. Some of them are called that word just because they complain to a manager or they go loco on social media about whatever's bothering them in their supposedly privileged lives, but it's not always about race. The people acting that way aren't always cis female or white either, although it does add to the stereotype and general mystique when they are.

I agree, all them should be called out.

That doesn't mean one might not come up with more specific terminology to describe a specific pattern of behaviour demonstrated.

Just like not all bullies are cry-bullies, only a certain form of cry-bullying was associated with the term Karen (before it started being used to describe any middle aged women with a complaint).

That pattern of behaviour will (and should) have terms associated with it for as long as it exists. We should be mindful to not immediately dismiss the terms used to describe that problematic behaviour as being sexist slurs, simply because that behaviour can't really be effectively done by men. Men would get told to 'man up' if they tried to pull that card. If the term appears sexist, it's because it reflects sexism within that society.

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24 Jun 2023, 5:21 pm

A damsel is an unmarried woman. It comes from mademoiselle. Are all Karens unmarried or has this notion of damsel in distress been appropriated to mean any woman who is upset about any topic? Are women (and especially single, younger ones I presume), not allowed to flip out about things or be outspoken anymore?

Of course speaking out can be good or bad. I'm not suggesting we give people a free pass on racist rants (or classist, bigoted, sexist rants of any sort), but ranting itself is OK isn't it?

I worry that young white women are being conditioned to shut their traps on any social media or even real-life situations which upset them, especially if they happen to look like they might have some money in the bank.

Last I checked we all have the same rights to freedom of speech, and people who are racist or sexist (etc.) are dealt with for what they've done and said, rather than the demographic they were born into.

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24 Jun 2023, 5:23 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Recidivist wrote:

No, you said we should be hostile to 'damsel in distress...............' , I said that was a bad idea. :roll:

If you see someone engaging in it you should call it what it is rather than letting them get away with it. How is that a bad idea?

If you care to read Alex's rules you will see that any post like the theoretical one you are describing is covered by rule 1. I am not saying let them get away with it, in fact I am saying report them to a mod. I'm a hypocrite for saying this as I used to always call people out, I have seen the error of my ways.

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TwilightPrincess
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24 Jun 2023, 5:24 pm

I've seen men complain about stupid stuff at stores and treat employees like s**t, so this behavior is not confined to middle-aged, white women.

People can complain about the behavior without resorting to sexism. There is no need to bring gender into it AT ALL.

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24 Jun 2023, 5:29 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Recidivist wrote:

No, you said we should be hostile to 'damsel in distress...............' , I said that was a bad idea. :roll:

If you see someone engaging in it you should call it what it is rather than letting them get away with it. How is that a bad idea?

Call out the behavior by all means - just don't promote a word specifically aimed as a hate/derisive term for a group.

funeralxempire wrote:

Just like not all bullies are cry-bullies, only a certain form of cry-bullying was associated with the term Ka*n (before it started being used to describe any middle aged women with a complaint).

Its prevalent use is as a label for middle aged women with a complaint. A sexist generality.

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funeralxempire
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24 Jun 2023, 5:32 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:

A damsel is an unmarried woman. It comes from mademoiselle. Are all Ka*ns unmarried or has this notion of damsel in distress been appropriated to mean any woman who is upset about any topic? Are women (and especially single, younger ones I presume), not allowed to flip out about things or be outspoken anymore?

Of course speaking out can be good or bad. I'm not suggesting we give people a free pass on racist rants (or classist, bigoted, sexist rants of any sort), but ranting itself is OK isn't it?

I worry that young white women are being conditioned to shut their traps on any social media or even real-life situations which upset them, especially if they happen to look like they might have some money in the bank.

Last I checked we all have the same rights to freedom of speech, and people who are racist or sexist (etc.) are dealt with for what they've done and said, rather than the demographic they were born into.

I don't believe the popular trope of the damsel in distress has much actual connection to the proper definition of a damsel. We've all encountered people who use their own fragility as an excuse for why they can't do something or shouldn't have to deal with something or why they should get their way.

People are entitled to be outspoken. Others are also entitled to criticize them. If one rants in way that comes off as bigoted, they'll have to deal with that criticism.

None of that really addresses what I was saying though; which is that as long as a pattern of behaviour exists within a society terms will be coined to describe that pattern of behaviour. If we don't want to witness a long treadmill of euphemisms to replace Karen, we need to fix the behaviour, not just treat the label for the behaviour as sexist.

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24 Jun 2023, 5:36 pm

Cornflake wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Recidivist wrote:

No, you said we should be hostile to 'damsel in distress...............' , I said that was a bad idea. :roll:

If you see someone engaging in it you should call it what it is rather than letting them get away with it. How is that a bad idea?

Call out the behavior by all means - just don't promote a word specifically aimed as a hate/derisive term for a group.

funeralxempire wrote:

Just like not all bullies are cry-bullies, only a certain form of cry-bullying was associated with the term Ka*n (before it started being used to describe any middle aged women with a complaint).

Its prevalent use is as a label for middle aged women with a complaint. A sexist generality.

I don't disagree, but with that term no longer having the earlier meaning, it just means a new term will replace it to refer the people like Amy Cooper.

The problem isn't with labelling the behaviour, the problem is with the behaviour. The only way to stop the behaviour from being labelled is to address the behaviour itself.

TwilightPrincess
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24 Jun 2023, 5:40 pm

^ What label should we give to men or NB people who behave in similar ways? :roll:

They do exist and can be observed once one can see past their confirmation bias.

How about we just avoid dehumanizing labels?

funeralxempire
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24 Jun 2023, 5:41 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

^ What label should we give to men or NB people who behave in similar ways? :roll:

They do exist and can be observed once one can see past their confirmation bias.

How about we just avoid dehumanizing labels?

Whatever label you'd like.

TwilightPrincess
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24 Jun 2023, 5:42 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

^ What label should we give to men or NB people who behave in similar ways? :roll:

They do exist and can be observed once one can see past their confirmation bias.

How about we just avoid dehumanizing labels?

Whatever label you'd like.

I don't like labels. Since you seem to, I thought you might have some ideas. :lol:

funeralxempire
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24 Jun 2023, 5:47 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

^ What label should we give to men or NB people who behave in similar ways? :roll:

They do exist and can be observed once one can see past their confirmation bias.

How about we just avoid dehumanizing labels?

Whatever label you'd like.

I don't like labels. Since you seem to, I thought you might have some ideas. :lol:

I'm not a member of the affected community. You might want to ask people who deal with that problem how they describe men who behave that way, and why no analogous term exists for white men who behave similarly, if one doesn't exist.

I'm not the one doing the labelling, I'm just arguing that usually there's some reasoning behind labels and that understanding the reasoning is more useful than just treating the label as impolite.

Last edited by funeralxempire on 24 Jun 2023, 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TwilightPrincess
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24 Jun 2023, 5:50 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

^ What label should we give to men or NB people who behave in similar ways? :roll:

They do exist and can be observed once one can see past their confirmation bias.

How about we just avoid dehumanizing labels?

Whatever label you'd like.

I don't like labels. Since you seem to, I thought you might have some ideas. :lol:

I've seen men like my dad complain about stuff and scream at fast food employees and the like.

Since you seem to be implying that the existence of a term demonstrates that it is valid, maybe we should think about the use of other slurs. :roll:

funeralxempire
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24 Jun 2023, 5:52 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

^ What label should we give to men or NB people who behave in similar ways? :roll:

They do exist and can be observed once one can see past their confirmation bias.

How about we just avoid dehumanizing labels?

Whatever label you'd like.

I don't like labels. Since you seem to, I thought you might have some ideas. :lol:

I've seen people like my dad complain about stuff and scream at fast food employees and the like.

Since you seem to be implying that the existence of a term demonstrates that it is valid, maybe we should think about the use of other slurs. :roll:

Does your dad weaponize his hurt feelings to the point that his outburst is viewed as completely justified and the people who he was hurting are actually in the wrong?

If not, that's not an example.

Quote:

When we talk about ‘white women’s tears’, it doesn’t mean any time a white woman cries.

This phrase relates to the specific phenomenon where white women can inflict damage on people of colour with a strategic use of emotional outpouring.

This strategy is weaponised when a white woman uses this visible sadness or distress to portray themselves as a victim in a conflict situation, often derailing the actual argument and leading to the vilification of Black people.

That's a strategy that deserves to be condemned and because of our society's inherent sexism, it's much easier and more successful when women attempt it.

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24 Jun 2023, 5:54 pm

So glad I'm not named Karen. I'd die if my name became an offensive word. Although it doesn't offend me but it would if I was called Karen.

I've always worried about my name being named of a very destructive hurricane or a very deadly disease. Corona is actually a name, I knew a girl at school called Corona. It's quite a nice name but now that it's known as the COVID-19 it just reminds everyone of the virus.

Nobody seems to give the people I know called Karen annoying jokes about their name. But I know that if my name suddenly became an offensive slur I'd never hear the end of it.

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Last edited by Cornflake on 24 Jun 2023, 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.: Stop attempting to bypass the filter

TwilightPrincess
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24 Jun 2023, 5:55 pm

^^ My dad always acts like his anger over inconsequential matters is justified and that other people are wrong. I can't say exactly how other people feel. No one can. "The customer is always right" often applies on some level.

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