The real reason why Aspies are often unemployable.

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo[/youtube]

I am inclined to believe that the real death knell for the employment chances of those of us with AS was when the big crackdown on sexual harassment started. I often wonder if, because of our social skills difficulties, we are often vulnerable to get nailed fot this even for things that don'e come even close to qualifying. And while such laws really were needed, they very often have gone way too far. I don't believe, for example, that a man saying to a woman "I like your sweater" constitues harassment, especially if done in good taste and not overdone. But I often wonder if many employers are using this as a convenient excuse to oust someone they just don't like for whatever reason--that evil office politics mind game.

I have already here on this forum read many stories of those who can't ace interviews and became victims of those that seem to want people that can do all the small talk. I find that incredible in this times of "lean and mean" management styles with bare-bones staffs. And the thing is that this will undoubtedly continue until we can get smart and change employment laws. Unless there is a union or other contract involved, most employment is considered "at will" which means that you can be fired for any reason or even no reason at all. So far only one state, Montana, has abdicated this in favor of a just cause doctrine. It is true that "at will" works the other way as well, but there is a vast difference between when one is fired from a job or quits voluntarily. One of the mind games that often takes place is what can be termed "silent bullying" whereby coworkers may plot against you so you are unaware, in the hopes that you will be miserable or unhappy enough that you will quit so they don't have to give you unemployment.

There is this old line about not wanting to create a hostile work environment. But if one has to practically wear handcuffs, a blinfold and a muzzle because you have to be so afraid of how you look at someone or what you say and have to be on your guard as to who you can trust, isn't that hostile as well?

I'll share something horrifying that happened to me. When I was 23, I worked at a restaurant for nine months before getting terminated for sexual harassment. When I came in to work, both GM and my immediate supervisor sat me down, in a booth that was in the sight of everyone there, and proceeded to explain that I was "leering" at some of the girls there, and this was sexual harassment. I knew it was just to get back at me for standing up to my supervisor when she berated me in an inappropriate way. It really humbled her, or so I thought, but she was determined to have the last laugh. Anyway, they sat me down and insisted this was sexual harassment. I didn't know WHO the hell was accusing me, and they wouldn't say. They didn't even give an example. Worst of all, they said they already counseled me for sexual harassment in the past, which absolutely they did NOT, but when I asked for documentation, they wouldn't show me "for legal reasons" Heck, if my sig is on it, they legally HAVE to show me. When I got home, I called and threatened to sue and call the Better Business Bureau. I was humiliated and enraged. The GM just told me it's a right to work state.* I called back the next day, and I guess my threat really sunk in, and we agreed that if he told my next employer that I quit voluntarily, and with a two week notice, I'd drop this whole thing. The sh*t bag agreed, even stammeringly telling me that was the deal to begin with. So I had my reference and moved on.

The End.

*Right-to-work laws give employers carte blanche as to how they hire and terminate their staff. There aren't unions for workers here in Arizona, and you can be let go for any reason, at any time.

Actually, this is a common misconception. What you're referring to is at-will employment (every state except Montana has that). Right-to-work just means you can't be forced to join a union as a condition of employment. Not saying I favor or oppose either one...I just get annoyed when people make this mistake.

Well f**k me for not knowing, the manager that fired me didn't even know.

What happened in this case may have been a type of witch hunt. And, no, that practice did not die with Joe McCarthy. Sad fact is that they know they have the upper hand and that there is so often not a damn thing the recipient can do about it, at least not legally. As much progress as we have made in civil rights, gay rights, etc., it seems monumental that here in 2011 we have yet to give workers a real fair shake who do not belong to unions. It is a reason why I hope that one day they will once again be able to gain strength. Do any of you here know whether any of the remaining 49 states have made any inroads to amending employment laws to where, at the very least, those not represented by union or other contracts would have some recourse with which they could legally fight back through independent arbitration. I presented something like this to my state rep but don't believe it ever went anywhere. Oh, BTW, does anyone know if the condition of AS is covered under the Americans with Disabilities act? I wrote the manuscript for a book based on an incident that happened to me a couple of years back. Know any reputable publishers of socially-conscious fiction?

This, and Penn & Teller did a BS! episode on the ADA that showed that the ADA actually hurts the disabled in hiring and promotion because while the ADA did impose protections for people like us, it also created a protected class that could sue over just the perception of being discriminated against.

Those who have real experience running a business will tell you that business owners are "risk adverse." They don't want someone in the office who can be a potential for legal/financial headaches for them later on.

Sexual harassment hurts people with AS because being misunderstood could lead to the employer dealing with complaints that, though ultimately unfounded, still cost money to defend against. Easier not to hire the "potential troublemaker."

The ADA hurts people with AS because accommodating someone with AS is not a black-and-white matter like putting in a ramp for the front steps or wider doors on the bathroom stall. Someone with AS might be no issue or a major headache, and that UNCERTAINTY is all the reason an employer needs to justify not hiring someone with AS.

And, yes, I know that not hiring someone out of fear of it being a legal headache later is prohibited under the ADA, but to go anywhere with a lawsuit, you need to be able to PROVE that is what happened, and if you can't prove it, you won't get your day in court. More so, filing a complaint or trying to sue over it only galvanizes the justification to NOT consider the handicapped for employment.

It would be more effective to get the handicapped into good jobs by having benefits an employer could get by choosing to hire them. Tax credits and the like to offset any costs involved in adapting for the non-traditional employee.

The point the last poster just made is well taken, but the $64K question is: where do we go from here? To me the sexual harassment law was needed to stop a lot of BS such as folks having to oblige in that manner to get raises, or in some cases even to keep their jobs, but it has turned into a major assault on workplace civil liberties. We have literally become somewhat of a "scarlet letter" society where no transgression seems to be forgiven anymore. How do you think we got all the way from free love to zero tolerance?

I have personally tried to keep my condition hidden for as long as possible, but now am wondering whether I should disclose this ahead of time although it may turn out to be the equivalent of having been in prison. I have always wished to sink or swim on my own merit, but the way things are today makes me inclined to feel as if we need all the protection we can get where we can. The unfortunate byproduct is that this condition is the fact that our disability is not obvious the way a physical disability is. Things probably will not change much until those of us with AS and related conditions can muster up a lobby to say that we are a minority as well. Perhaps we should limit the things that can be sued for and only prosecute TRUE sexual harassment and let the other stuff slide. I hope that before my life is over I can see the end of the time when a compliment such as "I like your sweater" can be assumed to be harassment. We used to be able to get farther with sugar than with vinegar, but I doubt that is true anymore. Isn't it also a hostile environment if one has to go to work nearly wearing handcuffs, a blindfold and a muzzle because he has to be so damn afraid?

Yeah this is something I had happen just a few days ago, except I did do pretty good at small talk, and also proved that I was qualified for the job in a few ways. However they went and hired somebody with no experience (it's a long story as to how I know this)

[quote=beechnut]One of the mind games that often takes place is what can be termed "silent bullying" whereby coworkers may plot against you so you are unaware, in the hopes that you will be miserable or unhappy enough that you will quit so they don't have to give you unemployment.[/quote]

Oh my gosh, beechnut, you just described what I'm going through in spades.

I recently (well....4 months ago) found out from my friend that his friend got laid off and was making more money from unemployment than his actual job.

There's a long, convoluted story behind my job but basically the gist is that my mom had to deal with my district manager, and my mom is the type of person who will tell somebody where to shove it. Which she did, PLENTY of times. So then I got hired at my job and she quit 4 months later. I had to deal with said DM and the manager at the time was one of those "do what you will" types, and always made sure I got plenty of hours.

Well, he quit a while ago and since then, the new management has been taking all sorts of things out on me despite the fact that I've been there the longest out of all of them. Like one day I was accused of stealing 9 bucks from the register, when previously I had NEVER been short. And why would I only take 9 bucks? If I wanted to steal (not to say I would), I'd take at least a couple hundred. And recently my hours were drastically cut. I'm getting 5 hours a week now even though out of everyone there, I need the hours the most. It's very likely because the DM has these new people wrapped around his finger that this is happening. He hated my mom, and my mom quit because he did some stupid crap he shouldn't have gotten away with, so when my manager left he saw it as free reign to take everything out on me. He also really seems to hate the fact that a disabled guy is doing his job while he (by he I mean the DM) has to go around babysitting the more-abled people.

They keep accusing me of doing certain things and lying to my face about hours, and I had the thought that maybe they're doing this to get me to quit so I don't get unemployment. They know that I would rather have UE instead of only getting 4 hours a week. Yet for all the accusations thrown on me they have not fired me yet.



Yeah, I would say it's just as hostile. And unfortunately, as SadAspy and a few others have said, a lot of places operate on at-will contracts. I've been applying for new jobs for ages but I think most of the time, as soon as they see my hearing aids or hear me speak they instantly count me out. Which severely limits my job circle even though I'm qualified to do a lot of jobs.

All I know is, the job system needs a huge reform.

I agree totally, but will we ever get it? This should be part of the agenda for the Occupy movement going on not just in the US but in other parts of the world as well. I have heard that most of the US has about the weakest employment protection laws in the world. The axis is titled very heavily in favor of big business, and the chieftains all know it!

Sounds like if you have the skill for it, you might as well start your own computer-repair business, charge less than what the Geek Squad does and voila.

As for the thread OP, it's so accurate, it hurts to remind myself of everything you're told about the importance of college (or even graduating high school) is a BIG FAT LIE. I have screwed up three times are far as failing to socially network when it's critical. First one was university, second was the Walt Disney World College Program, and most recent was the medical coding and billing school. I even made a portfolio for the last one but I had to fake most of it in order to past. I'm tired of having to relearn the basic job hunting skills over and over again and be told the same things that will NEVER make any sense to me.

Also, if you have problems smiling naturally, like I do, you will not even be considered. I was doing an interview for a fast food joint and throughout the interview I was constantly reminding myself to smile and I really thought I was doing more than I ever had before. Then near the end of the interview, the manager teasingly asked "can I get a smile?". I do believe it's the manager's way of asking "you don't smile much, do you?" I was soooo mad, I regret not lashing out at the manager for how hard I was working throughout the interview just to smile only to find out I wasn't smiling at all. Even when I try I can't win.

Amen! I now have had three interviews for nearly 40+ applications and at least one felt my lack of social interaction was painfully clear to the manager.

Just out of interest (and I dont mean to come across as cocky, aggressive, insensitive, etc) for those of you who feel you have been unable to get a job due to poor interview skills, what have you done about it?

I mean have you tried reading up on the subject, taking a course, practicing with family or friends or even in front of a mirror, etc, etc. I ask as I have learned to "fake it", albeit probably too convincingly, but I was just wondering if others have tried any of these options and still not succeeded as I know we are all on a spectrum, etc. If I can help or advise anyone I will of course try (I have interviewed people as part of my work which is a very weird experience - especially when the interviewee is doing all they can to make eye contact and I am doing all I can to avoid it) but if there is one piece of advise I woud give to anyone (NT or AS) it is to practice, practice, practice! Also, some employers will give feedback on your unsuccessful interview if you write to them and sometimes the feedback can be surprising!

I did not go through the entire load of messages yet, but ti seems like getting a job now, "who you know" really helps a lot more than "what you know." At the least, "Who you know," might crack the door open enough for you to follow through and get hired. I've experienced this from time to time.

I too love this country, but strongly believe it could do better in many ways, including employment reform. Every US state except Montana is considered "at will" which means that a person can be fired for any or even no reason, and good luck trying to fight back. Is it true that in most of the rest of the world workers can only be fired for just cause?

Well here in Canada, you have to have just cause to fire someone, but in practice, its not hard to find an excuse. If you want to get rid of someone without an excuse, all you can do is lay them off, but then the position has to be left vacant until you offer them the job back. But like I say, its never hard to find some excuse.