Accounting--a warning for Aspies

Post Reply New Topic

Hi, I’m a 36 year old aspie who is most likely about to be let go from a job as a tax accountant that I’ve been in just under a year. Not for certain that it is going to happen yet, but I have not performed well and I feel like it is just a matter of time when I look at the economic conditions.

Many times accounting is recommended as a career for aspies. While theoretically it would seem to be a good fit, I think many people do not understand how much social interaction is required in accounting, especially public accounting. I went into tax in hopes of avoiding some of this, but had problems anyway.

I currently work at a large national firm. There are literally hundreds of people at my office. I found early on that it was really difficult to stand out from the crowd and to establish myself in order to find work [you aren’t just given work to do, you have to go out and convince others to put you on a client assignment.] You are forced to develop a network within the firm. How well you can do this determines your survival. I was not able to do this very well. In the end, it is a popularity contest. I was older [most people at my staff level are around 23-24 years old] so that didn’t help either. People tend to favor those like themselves, and they are going to prefer to work with those that they socialize with, vacation with, etc.

One would think that it would be good to be at a large firm in order to sort of fade into the background, but this can’t be done either due to technology. Reports are generated about your activity every couple of weeks. I quickly found myself to be an “outlier” and all the various decision making people in the firm knew about it.

I spent the first six months of my job reading articles, studying for the CPA exam, etc. I couldn’t find any work other than mundane office tasks that did not develop into anything. Although it may sound like fun to not actually have work to do, the reality is that it is very dull. Also, I was not developing the skills I needed in order to do well when I was finally assigned “real” work, which happened this past tax season. I did horribly [even removed from a client at one point], and unfortunately, my aspieness made it difficult for me to ask questions, interact with superiors, etc. I was quickly labeled a “poor performer” and have spent the last three months about the same way I did when I began…surfing the web, reading articles, doing computer based trainings, and being bored out of my skull. I have totally lost my confidence.

I know some of my problem is due to the economy. I was hired before the downturn, and we quickly ran into the situation where there was not enough work to go around. The assignments have gone to the “popular” people, and those who have done well in the past. I remain an unknown element, a “poor performer” and therefore I get nothing. I expect to be let go in about a month, and I look forward to it, even though I have no idea what will happen if I cannot find work and my savings begin to disappear.

I am sorry for the long post. I’m hoping to either find work at a smaller firm [hopefully some of the problems will not be as bad if I don’t have to compete with my co-workers] or the government [although being an IRS agent involves a LOT of people contact.] With the economy being the way it is, though, I wouldn't be surprised if it is long time before I have a full time job again.

I do think aspies can do well in accounting if they can find a situation where social skills/networking are less important. I’m hoping to find that situation someday. But that definitely isn't the typical job in accounting.

Anyway, long story short, accounting is a very social job in a lot of cases, much more than people realize. I even had a professor say that “If you’re going into accounting because you just want to work in a room by yourself without having to deal with people, you’re in the wrong field.” I found that out the hard way.

Do you really want a job working on your own though with no human contact? I personally do not want that, although many think that such a job is what would suit me.

What I ideally do want is:
- A say in key decisions
- Being given responsibility for some area in which I work and being allowed to use my judgement to get the work done.
- Positive feedback when I have done a good job.
- Performance to be measured on those terms.

I find peers the hardest to work with. Clients are the easiest because you can find out what they want and do it for them but they generally don't tell you how to do your job and they trust your expertise, and that is what they are really after, not how good you are socially. Managers are a bit like clients anyway because they are also telling you what to do, but they also have some say in how you do it, so the best managers will simply prioritise for me and also trust my expertise, because sometimes I do know better than them in my own particular skill.

Your problem, you claim, is that work was given to your peer group over you because they were more popular, although later you said when your chance did arise you blew it. Not that you did a great job but they did not appreciate it, but that you performed poorly.

Although I think us aspies need to be treated fairly, and judged by the actual work, I do not think we deserve preferential treatment. You may be upset by what has happened but I do not think you can claim to be have been treated unfairly because you are an aspie in this case.

I knew there would be a lot of social interaction involved when I started my job. I just had no idea that I would suck at it so much.
I've been in my accounting job for 5 years so far and still haven't successfully interacted with any clients. As punishment I have been given the lowest charge out rate in the firm, and still do some of the general office tasks such as mailing and washing coffee cups. My day consists of 50% chargeable work and 50% office related stuff, which means I have one of the lowest productivity rates in the firm as well.
I'm good at the technical work, however. I know my bosses don't like the fact that I'll be stuck in the back of the office for the rest of my working life, but they say I won't last in any other firm (and our firm is very laid back in comparison to others, but I guess it can be with only 20 employees) so they haven't fired me yet. I've heard of the goings on in much larger firms; the atmosphere is usually as cold as ice. I don't really want to be in one of them

I had no chance of performing once I was given work, because I had spent the first six months of my job scanning documents, putting binders together, etc. It was basically like being told to run when you could barely walk. Apparently my experience is not uncommon in large accounting firms. They don't really give you any room for error, and if you continue to have difficulty after a while they just write you off, basically. A lot of my friends have had similar problems, though none to my extent. Those of us who didn't intern previously have had to struggle for project time.

In the end, audit might have been a better fit for me because it may be more structured [as in the description given earlier.] I was more interested in tax when I was in school, but I haven't needed very much of what I was taught. I've found that tax work for new people is 90% data entry and working with the notoriously buggy software. I didn't want to do the travel of audit, so I guess that was my mistake. Also didn't want to work so closely with people [trapped in a room with a group of people for long hours on end is hellish for me.]

BTW, in tax, at least as far as I can tell, you don't deal with clients until you have been there a few years.

Asperger's plays into the equation because it gives me difficulty in following verbal instructions, and in communicating problems I'm having. It also makes networking very difficult, which I've learned is the most important thing of all in the workplace, way more important than any technical knowledge you have. What you know doesn't matter if you can't convince others that you are good to work with. It's hard too when the people you are competing with for work have already interned and made connections. I don't make connections well.

The whole thing is built on the premise that the majority of people will get sick of it and leave after a few years, with around 10% or so leaving after 1 year or less. Guess I'm in that 10%, although I'm hoping to at least make it a year so it doesn't look totally bad on my resume.

I'm not asking for preferential treatment of any kind, just that I should have been given work from the beginning and been able to develop instead of kind of being thrown to the lions. I feel like I was set up to fail. Making binders, etc., does not help you to do tax returns. I didn't "blow it," I just was not able to have the skill set in place in order to do the job due to their overall lack of support, and unfortunately, due the various issues I have with communication I had a rough time trying to learn.
I don't really know why they hired me in the first place, other than at the time I interviewed the economy was better and they probably would have had a use for me if there had been more work in the pipeline. Guess no one foresaw the direction the economy took almost immediately after I was hired.

Just feel that I should have been given more support [not as an aspie, but just as an employee] in the beginning. Don't understand how it is acceptable to just let new hires in and say they are on their own as far as finding work, etc. We allegedly had an HR person in charge of scheduling assignments, but all she would do is b***h at me about why I wasn't finding any work.


Anyway, hoping the next job is better. I don't think I was saying I was treated unfairly because of being an aspie [just being treated unfairly in general, as have been several other people,] just saying that the environment makes demands that may be especially difficult for aspie people, and that many people may have the wrong idea about accounting being a good option for people with Asperger's. But accounting is a big field, and I'm hoping to find a place where I fit. I think I can handle working in private industry or in government. Anything where I don't have to continue to interview after getting the job.

I think you should go out looking for a new job NOW before they decide to lay you off. The simple explanation to give your prospective employer is that your current position simply has not been a good fit. No blame on either side; just say it hasn't worked out as well for either you or the employer as you would have liked.

If you are working for a large national, the easiest transition would be to a second tier firm. Basically, a smaller regional or national. I spent most of my career (past tense since I'm just part time now, mostly mom) in second tier firms and loved it. Each has its own personality, so you can take the time to find one that approaches issues and problems in a way that you are comfortable with. I am a tax specialist, and in the second tiers you get a real variety of work. Quite fun. Well, it was for me, anyway.

From second tiers you can go either way, down to smaller practices that mostly churn out 1040s, up to larger firms again but with a better start, or to an internal accounting department. That was another thing I loved about the second tier; it is so relevant to most possible directions.

Currently I consult part time with both a small local firm (10 people, mostly 1040's, although I don't do those - he gives me all the multi-state and complicated S partnerships or S corps) and a second tier that specializes in Hotels and non-profits (I manage a single, large multi-state client for them that is, well, as mess - its involved a ton of forensic accounting).

You are absolutely right that the top career paths involve being highly social. But you can still find a route for yourself. The key, probably, will be to become technically superior in an area that not everyone knows. Or, well, just technically superior, period. I've gotten away with a lot over my career because I simply can figure things out better than pretty much anyone else in the firm (I'm probably not AS; don't really know; I come here because my son is AS). And because I don't make mistakes. The small firm I consult with had an employee who was strongly AS and his strength was being lightening fast AND accurate. Figure out what your strengths are, change jobs to utilize them better, and don't give up.

Accounting firms are unbelievably unique from each other. You can find a better fit. Go out and do it.

But, yes, to the point you made in starting this thread - I don't think of accounting as a great profession for AS. But since you're in it, make it work. You can. Really.

Best of luck!

I worked at H&R Block two-and-a-half years and another company one year. I don't want to be more specific because I later expect to slam Block for not being ethical, for not disclosing the significant features of refund anticipation loans (RALs)--like they should.

The good part of Block, for about three weeks in Jan and Feb, the job dances. There is more work than employees. They are happy to have you even if you're different. Now, you probably won't make the bonus, and they sometimes lay off new people mid-Feb, but for those three weeks, capitalism and the job market works like it's supposed to.

I have probably sat face-to-face with 500 tax clients. I have tried very hard to engage in dialogue and conversation (rather than talking in paragraphs like I sometimes do). I have worked on ways of asking straightforward questions and explaining things in simple declarative sentences, even if it's not completely accurate, it gets the conversational ball rolling. And writing down does help. I usually journal anyway about what I'm doing in life.

It's categories and it's feel and texture, and it's not primarily numbers, and I think non-tax persons may have a hard time understanding that. Can someone claim a qualifying child for Earned Income Credit? And the awkward questions in the software don't necessarily make the IRS rules simpler. Usually, the contrary. So, you have to understand the rules. And understand the quirks of the software. And have a repertoire for having a real conversation with the client.

And all this, some clients I just didn't connect with. So, don't blame yourself for being taken off one client.

It sounds like it's a very junior high workplace. People are afraid of associating with an "unpopular" person because it might rub off (?) and they too will be classified as "unpopular." This is probably to be expected with new employees. The shame of it is that a more seasoned person didn't recognize the pattern and step forward. You're in there trying, they can't really ask any more. It's just a shame more of you co-workers didn't act like adults.

Do you have family and/or friends backing you up? If you're not sure, ask.

Consider taking classes post-bac status this Fall semester, maybe finance or marketing, generally broadly in the accounting category. Or toward a master's.

More long-term, consider law school. Tax law is something where getting the details right matter. Many lawyers make a career out of writing appelate briefs.

Already have a master's in accountancy, although I'm wondering if that might have been a mistake now. I think I might be a better fit for bookkeeping type jobs, etc. that only require an associate's. I may take a course in forensic accounting sometime in the future--I think being a fraud examiner would be interesting work.

The workplace *is* pretty "junior high." It's a really young workplace, there are a lot of people, and I think the system is designed to weed people out. I don't really think a lot of it is even conscious---more a case of people ignoring the old guy in the corner because they're busy with their friends their own age.

My hope is to get with a smaller firm where employees aren't in competition with each other. I'm also wanting a broader range of experience, and I'm not even sure if tax is ultimately where I want to go anymore. Where I'm at now, there is a real focus on a certain industry, and a pressure for people to specialize. There are a lot of really basic tax concepts that I hardly ever work with because our clients don't have a lot of tangible assets---the main thing I worked with was how to measure certain investment gains depending on what basis the client used.

I'm more interested in working someplace small where we all work together, and working with a little bit of everything. I think I would learn more in that environment.

Eventually, I'd like to just work for one company---I don't mind having to start out doing bookkeeping or whatever. I've thought about working for one of the tax prep places. I'm sure they would take me, but I am pretty overqualified for that. I'm applying for my CPA license in a few weeks.

Hoping the IRS in my area might be doing some hiring sometime next year too...pretty sure they're full up for the time being.

Anyway, thanks for the replies. I do believe I can carve out a niche for myself somewhere. Just really disappointed in everything that has happened in this past year.

Consider folding the hand early.

In particular, be aware of scenes in which three people team up against you in a room making the case that it is right and proper to fire you. Most states have employment at will, but corporations still somehow feel the need to do this for "compliance" or "procedure" for HR or whatever.

This has happened to me several times and has stayed with me a while. And I have had Tony Soprano-style revenge fantasies. I have learned, in Zen-like fashion, just to let the revenge fantasy float into my mind, I don't judge it, I don't try and push it out, I don't revel in it, I just let it be, let it float around on its own accord and float out on its own good time. And if I revel in it, then next time I have an entirely fresh opportunity to just let it float. And speaking frankly, sometimes I kind of wish I did have an uncle who was a mobster who would make an offer to settle a score on my behalf, who would really feel the injustice on my behalf, who would get angry on my behalf, and I could graciously decline, no, thank you, but let's take the high road. And in a sense I would get credit for taking the high road. And at least one other human being would understand the situation. It doesn't help that my family tends to do the opposite and justifies whatever someone else has done or whatever an organization has done, regardless of the circumstances, and tends to blame me, again regardless of the circumstances. (It is common and "normal" to justify the status quo, but my family takes it further than normal.)

I have had to learn on my own the method and the slogan: engagement, not conformity.

So the best advice is just to avoid these scenes.

"I will talk to one person."

"And do we need to be in an office?"

"Let's just take a low-key walk, alright?"

And at the beginning, you do not need to respond to the content of a response.

"All the same, I will talk to one person."

You can repeat that whatever they have said.

---

Or, you can even keep it shorter.

"One person,"

They say whatever. Pay medium interest

Then say, "I will talk with one person."

If an argument begins how it's no big deal, or how you're the one making a big deal of it, Say "Excuse me" or "Pardon me" or neither or both and walk away.

Put one foot in front of the other and walk away.

A good 30 minutes or longer, call a person on a cell phone. "You want a letter of resignation, is that what this is all about?"

"Okay, so you want a letter of resignation. Give me 24 to 48 hours to think about it. Let's talk then." That is called taking a poker pause.

By the way, all this is hard. In the Milgram obedience study, people got stuck. They tended to lack the words to walk away. You don't need the words! Just walk away.

Look, you're already had an example with the HR person bitching at you for not being on a team but doing nothing to help you. You don't need a really bad scene, a McCarthy-like witch hunt if which things are twisted, and half-lies are told and all kinds of sneaky lies of omission are told, and the fact that you can't respond instantly and automatically is taken as evidence that you see it too. It's not! It's just evidence that you can't respond instantly and automatically. And we as Aspies try, we are much more content-oriented than most people. I've even had it when someone intentionally sat and blocked the door. They caught me off guard. It's okay to get caught off guard, but you still don't need a scene like this. "Can you help me with the doorknob here? Can you help me get the door?"

----------------------------------

By the way, I highly recommend poker as a way to add to your repertoire of social skills and social appreciation (appreciating others, flaws and all!). I highly nonrecommend poker as a way to make money. For me, poker has taught baseline of general odds (baseline of general knowledge if you will) combined with feel-and-texture of actual situation.

That is, both content and context.

(I understand probability very well, have even taught high school math. And I broke even. Lost money if you count hotels and incidentals.)

I'm ready to go....really need to move to another city for non-job related reasons, so how they decide to do it is not a big issue. Just wanting to stick around in order to get the CPA license [literally, only a couple of weeks from being eligible, assuming they don't make a big deal about chargeable hours during the year, which I don't think they will] and to avoid having to pay back part of a signing bonus.

It is pretty uniform how the bigger firms have been doing this...you get an "invite" in your e-mail for a meeting the following day [I've been told my firm always does it on Friday.] It'll be in a partner's office. When you show up, an HR person will be in the room. The partner reads some boilerplate about how you are being separated from the firm, then you're left with the HR person who goes through the detail part--basically turning in your laptop, ID badge, giving info about benefits, etc.

Luckily, I'm in a state that is very employee-centric when it comes to unemployment benefits, [they will basically give them to you even if you are fired, so long as you didn't commit gross misconduct] so I'm not too worried about what's going to happen. Would rather be fired than have to quit voluntarily, but I have reached the point where it's basically wait for them to fire me in about a month, or quit in about six or seven weeks. Can't do this anymore.

I should have an indication [the results of the year end review] in a couple of weeks about what they're going to do. Anyway, I'm not all that worried about it. Either way, I will be out of a miserable work situation, finally reaching the end of a miserable year. My skills are pretty marketable [at least on paper] so I think I won't have to go too long without another job. Might be a temp job or something else, but I should be able to find something.

Those of us who haven't done that great here are all in the process of looking for other jobs. A co-worker who is in a similar situation has already gotten a job offer, so I think I should be all right.

And you also have this potential card:

"I have a family situation I need to take care of. It's going to be at least three days, probably more. I'm sorry, but I have to take care of it."

This is a lie, a face-saving lie, but I think it is okay.

And the family situation you are taking care of is your own piece of mind. You can decide to do this any afternoon and make the final decision the next morning. Or you can decide to do this while shaving in the morning. It can buy you some time. And you can extend the three days at your choice.

--------

And please be careful. I have said this same thing to myself, that it doesn't matter (why should the words of someone I do not particularly respect . . . ) and yet it does. It is still, when all is said and done, a situation with a real human being, with several real human beings (even if they're not at their best!).

If someone says something mean, hurtful, out-of-line, gratuitous.

"Wow."

Matter-of-factly, with period. Or with exclamation mark. Either way is okay.

"Wow!"

And then perhaps slowly repeat what they have said, as if you are rolling it in your mouth " . . . so I haven't put forth the effort . . . " And if you have the ability to do a theatrical laugh, do that theatrical laugh, and allow the possibility of it becoming a real laugh. "Well, I guess we just look at it real, real differently . . . " Say that slowly, word by word, you don't even need to get it all out.

Or, "I thought we were going to keep this short."

"I would like to keep this short. I have things I would like to do. I suspect you guys too, have things you would like to do."

And you always have the ability to stand up, to put one foot in front of the other, and to walk out of the room. And you don't need to say anything at all as you do this.

I guess the partner has the time to go through this pantamine, but then doesn't have the time to assign a coach a little more advanced than you at the beginning--and then coach the coach!--including occasionally being two desks away and casually listening in during a coaching session, which I would view as really excellent management.

The meeting might be matter-of-fact. I hope so. I hope I'm mistaken in all of the above. I trying to expand social skills in specific ways, for myself as much as anyone else. Please take from the above whatever you like, or nothing. Trust your own best judgment, and your own gut instincts, both of them, find and go with that broad balance.

-------

On the CPA exam, I have more than a year total spread out over four seasonal tax years, is that enough to take the exam? Although I find myself more interested in science these days, I am still somewhat open to accounting. I am 46 years old. I am still a young man. At 36, you are emphatically a young man.

I am also into writing, and feel I am developing some pretty good skills, but making money that way, that's a long shot!

Requirements for the exam vary by state, but most often consist of a bachelor's degree [doesn't matter what area--mine is in English/creative writing] and a certain number of hours in accounting/business. California, my state, requires 24 hours in each. Many people do this by going to grad school in accounting or business. Passing the exam was my major achievement over this past year.

The coaching issue I had was that they assigned me a coach who worked in a very specialized area, property tax consulting. He didn't work with very many other people, and therefore, couldn't really offer me any support as far as finding me assignments to work on. A lot of other people had coaches who had a lot of engagment teams going and were able to find their coachees work.

The ironic thing is that the property tax consulting practice has since been dissolved by the national firm leadership, so my coach will be looking for a new job himself in a couple of months. I don't have any ill will against him, but I do think it was a bad decision having him coach new hires.

Good Lawd, whatever you don't don't quit! You have no idea how bad it is out here!

Use your job for a liferaft if you're actually going. At home, off company time, look at your field and what they're now asking for. Get your resume in order (the format has changed from only a couple years ago, so now it's an advertisement).

Join Linked In. It's a networking site, and can be a good source of information, contacts, etc.

Volunteer for some of the more mundane stuff if you want to stay; things like research, statistics, whatever looks useful. If you show some initiative, you might be able to turn things around. It worked (for a while) for me. If I had no work, I'd go ask for it. It got me through several rounds of layoffs, at least until we lost the contract.

And the age thing is getting out of hand. I'm seeing it here in the forum as well, how 'young' everything seems to be. In all the employment offices, all the groups that are looking for work, all the 'teach yourself how to get hired' courses, etc., you'll find all of those 'missing 40 year olds and up.


Hang in there. Might as well get something out of where you are, because it's brutal out here.

My wife and I own a house that hasn't sold [in another city], and I've been having to cover a house payment plus rent all this time. This has nothing to do with my job situation, but I really can't afford to stay here, as I am having to tap into my savings each month just to pay the bills for the multiple residences [nope, renting it out isn't an option.] The city I'm moving back to has a worse job market, but a much lower cost of living, and I think there is plenty of work in my field there [most of the unemployed there are manual labor type jobs, sales, etc.] Eventually we're looking to move out of state, hopefully next year.

I wouldn't want to work with one of the tax prep companies unless I had to. I'm not putting it down, it's just that I went to school, worked hard to pass the CPA exam, etc., and am way overqualified for it. It wouldn't help me with my career goals.

Annual reviews come out this week, at least I can get an indication as to whether they will give me the axe or not. Kind of hoping that they will, in order to get unemployment, and also to not have to agonize over the decision to quit.

Thanks for all the responses, everyone.