turned down a job where they wouldn't pay me properly

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This is a first for me.

I was offered a job that would've been a very big deal, a high-profile thing. And then they followed it up by offering me absolutely laughable money. When I said no, they asked me to write up my salary requirements and explain, and even though the "explain" part sat wrong, I did it, and I gave them a pretty substantial discount, because I know can't pay my regular freelance rate and this was a nice opportunity -- I'd have been able to build something worthwhile. Back they come with many excuses about why they can't and how they hope I'll meet them halfway &c. This is a university, mind. They have the money, so at this point I know they're in no way serious and for some reason thought I'd knock myself out building a program for them on junior-secretary money.

So I said no. And I feel fine. Real good, in fact. I'll be free to do the rest of my work without dying of exhaustion, and I'll have something resembling a summer. And I won't be working for people who'll give me a hard time just getting to the starting line.

I'm also mildly insulted, but I'm also aware that they're used to dealing with desperate academics with twistable arms. Can I tell you? I'm so glad I didn't become an academic -- these people are trapped. There's hardly anyplace they can work, and most of them are still hung up on tenure as a good thing to have, so they'll do anything to jump for the bone. Crazy. If I have one piece of advice for my daughter, besides "don't get pregnant before you can manage raising a kid", it's gonna be "don't box yourself in."

Are you still bargaining with them? Was that your final "no?"

Maybe their offer was a low-ball type offer.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 08 May 2014, 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I used to imagine being an academic. Everyone I knew encouraged me, too. They had no idea how hard it is.

I used to frequent physics forums. For those who don't know, in the USA, there are a huge amount of PhD's without work (even outside of academia). These people are often blamed for their lack of securing employment, even though universities know they are graduating far too many people for the amount of jobs available.

I've heard about this kind of crap from almost all of the universities I look at. They cut staff, hire part time faculty (with crappy pay), and even refuse to give raises to tenure professors. Then, they pick a few of the research professors who barely do any teaching and pay them a LOT of money.

Do you have to work at a university? Whatever your major was, can you somehow get a better job in industry?

Also, for future reference, should someone like me even bother "explaining" salary requirements? If a potential employer was to do that to me, do you think it would be better to just walk away? I can be naive and don't understand when I'm being manipulated and/or lied to until WAY later.

Hey 12345,

You done forgot about me! LOL

Sorry, I replied to you now! LOL!! !

They think they're still bargaining. I told them I'd already lowballed myself for them, and that's it, this is the world's easiest negotiation for them: yes or no. If they want to come back and meet my price...well, I'll think about it. Their offer was so ridiculously low that it's occurred to me that -- apart from lacking respect for me -- they lack vision, and trying to build something while working for cheap game-players who lack vision is not really high on my list of things to do. I think that if they met my price and terms, and I agreed, I'd have to do it in such a way that I could back out easily, and without damaging my other work. And I'm really not sure I want to try that. It's not like I don't have plenty else to do.

I'm supposed to meet with the guy in charge next week, and I'll lay it out flat so he doesn't sit there gusting words at me: the negotiation is over. Now, since he doesn't have my price and he still wants me to do work for him, we can talk about piecing it out as freelance and see what he can afford, what he wants to do, if anything. He's got very few options; all he can do here is decide what's essential to him. He's used to dealing with people who'll work for free, but I think he's finding out now that if he wants to deal with my field, he has to pay money.

That makes sense.

You probably have a decent resume/CV. You have bargaining chips.

Of course, academia likes to be cheap--and cheap with health benefits, too. It seems as if only tenured professors get health benefits.

Has the word "resume" become archaic? It seems as if Curriculum Vitae is replacing it--maybe because sounds high and mighty Roman in some sense?

Of course, the "curriculum vitae" has been the "resume" of academia for years.

Good for you! I remember your dilemma with having too much work on your plate. It's good to see you stand up for yourself, and allow a bit of breathing room. As long as you work to make enough money to meet your means. I work two jobs, and I'm often told "You should work more overtime so you can make more money." To which I reply "Money is no good if you don't have time to enjoy it."

Anyway, Enjoy the time you've just cleared out this summer, Go do something for you!

Hey I dont know exactly what you do but it sounds like you handled it about it. I do freelance work as well and jsut remember what they say: The right client for the right (your job here)

Sounds like it wasnt a good match. Some times low paying or UN-paying work in my case can be a good thing for the opportunity or to ad it to my portfolio but it sounds liek your doing something that takes more than a day as you mentioned it consuming your entire summer.

Congrats on knowing how and when to walk away. Though willingness to walk away is one of the most vital parts of negotiation skills, it seems to be the one with which most people have the most trouble.

My experience has been that the mindset people reveal during negotiations usually holds true throughout the relationship. I would not be surprised if their low-ball, justify-yourself attitude would carry forward in that way, and one might oneself constantly having to fight such battles.

Good for you, and glad you feel fine about it!

Almost every job I've applied for in this city, I was offered crazy low wages, and I turned them all down. And, I turn down the majority of freelance work for the same reason. I have done enough research to know what my time and experience is worth, and only lowball for people who have been good to me in the past.
My time is worth more to me now that I have kids, too... if I am going to have my focus take off of them, it has to be worth my time AND theirs. I have hardly any freelance work this year, so be it. Those who lowball will ultimately get what they pay for.

Complimenting my unique skills and experience doesn't pay the bills.

I actually had an old colleague email me about coming out to consult for a day or two, going on about how no one else can help him (true) and how much he'd enjoyed working with him in the past, etc. I gave him a nicely organized proposal, dropping my hourly rate about 30% because we'd worked together before and he's not difficult. I also gave him a suggested schedule of who I'd like to meet with and a written summary at the end of the project (good advice is worth nothing if it's not remembered).
No reply whatsoever. :-/
I ran into his girlfriend a couple months later and mentioned his lack of reply and she said he was really embarassed because he wasn't planning on paying me. ~blink blink~ Like really? The work I was going to do could've saved them countless man-hours and a good percentage off the pre-work fees for every construction and renovation project they'd have in the future.
Unreal.

I applied at an investment bank after University (boy was I ever naive!) and after the interview (where he was no doubt chuckled because I still metaphorically believed in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy) he suggested I could quit my current retail job and work there for free full time to gain experience. I remember sitting there speechless saying "I already have XYZ skills that why I went to University and did that major." If only I really knew.....

Now I don't mind volunteering for a charity or a non-profit, but for a multi-billion dollar company that makes record profits? Get bent! I later found out they pretty much use unpaid interns and spit them out like a mind control cult and they are no better off (although the interns aren't told that). If you were to tell a plumber or an electrician to not bill you for the first hour of a job until you trusted them they would tell you to f*** off to your face especially if you were a filthy rich stranger to them. I did get an offer at a call centre that paid barely above minimum wage and required a degree. I later said out loud "what did I get my Degree for? To get jobs I hate at an insulted pay rates in slave like conditions?" I'm better off digging ditches (literally)!

Seriously! Exactly, it's the same deal here. They don't have anyone else who can do this job. (Involves building a new academic program that's industrial enough that the kids can get jobs.) They'll wind up paying me more to do parts of it piecemeal than they would if they said OK to my salaried price/terms, and they won't get nearly what they would if they just bit the bullet and said "yes, this will cost money." So I'm gonna go sit with this young man and, you know, he's got one negotiating mode, which is wall of hair pomade. Just relentless grease-you-up. He's a smart guy and I like him, but he doesn't understand what this is about.

I give it even odds that he comes back and offers me my price, because, frankly, otherwise he has to do the work himself, and he doesn't know how and doesn't have time anyway. But Marky9 is right, he's showing me how he works. And the work's tough enough on its own, I don't need to fight to be able to do the work, too.

My best jobs these days come from coming in to do surgery on work from lowball contracts. My parting tip is usually to do with paying once to get the job done right the first time. Usually turns into repeat business.

Anyway. Same guy threw one of my students an "opportunity" that's exactly the sort of thing GHF's talking about with that investment bank -- I think they'd have paid minumum or something, but you still need the banker daddy if you're going to have that kind of internship in NYC. The kid has no banker daddy. Asked me whether I thought it was a good deal and I outlined what it was all about, and he turned it down. I think the guy who offered was miffed. Shouldn't have been, though. But he's got a rich daddy himself, and he does this routinely, steering kids towards internships they can't possibly afford. Best of intentions but no clue in that area.