Advice/insight for an NT?

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Hi, everyone. I hope it's OK for me to post this question. I am an NT who works with a person (we'll call this person "B") who I suspect has Asperger's. This didn't occur to me until quite recently, but the more I look into this, the more I believe that this may in fact be the case. I'll be honest: I don't know much about Asperger's and have never encountered (that I am aware of) someone with it. And to me, and many people I work with, B just seems "different." I am here hoping that some of you can give me some insight into what it's like for B and how we can effectively work together, because right now B's relations with everyone are quite strained.

Please know that the following is not intended to be judgmental in any way. They are observations through my (NT) eyes. I know that I do not (and probably cannot fully) understand Asperger's, but I am honest in my attempt toward understanding. Understanding what's really going on can only help us all. I may assign incorrect motivations to B's behavior, so I will try as best I can to just describe the behavior itself.

Some typical things about B (I have no idea if they are relevant, but here goes): B decides that months after sitting in the same place without comment, suddenly starts trying to move the (heavy) desk because more leg room is needed. B has lots of ideas about everything at work, and offers unsolicited suggestions about how to improve everything, stepping on the toes of others and offending them. B will send emails to communicate rather than using the phone or having face-to-face discussions. B composes all emails in exactly the same way (identical greeting and sign-off). B often does not respond to emails. When working together toward the same goal, B might handle it personally and then not inform anyone else how it turned out. B often smiles/laughs at times that don't seem to warrant it. When given direct instructions, B sometimes invents a new way to do the job and does it that way without asking whether that's an OK alternative (often it isn't). B has gone into other people's desks and when asked not to, seems not to understand why others may not like it. B sat in the middle of a party reading a book and didn't look at all uncomfortable. When asked to research something, B sometimes gives up after one attempt at finding the information. B sometimes will get angry very quickly at something that seems like no big deal to anyone else. When questioned about the outburst, B doesn't seem to know what we're talking about. B will learn a "rule of thumb" (something that is generally true but not always) and apply it strictly to any situation.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head. Does it sound like Asperger's to you? And if so, what can we do to make our working relationship better? This is a job that requires a fair amount of social interaction and working together as a team. I have to admit that I find it very hard to talk to her, but I would like to make steps toward improving the situation. Any ideas or insights you have are very much appreciated. Thanks for your time.

I was a little nervious that you were my boss at first,lol.(Your not,very different job discription)

Anyway....it sounds a lot like AS to me and I am suprised you know so much about it(including the term NT)good research skills.


I am not sure I have any practicle advice.I feel this is way over my head.The real question is does this person know about AS and would they be releived or offended if you asked them about it?I know I prefer a very dirrect approach.I dont ussually know why people are upset with me but I "think" I know when they are(though,I could be wrong,it is hard to tell).

Your basic description made it sound like they dont just have poor social skills but are actually not doing a very good job?One of the charactoristics that doesnt fit is........"when researching,doesnt look very long before giving up."Many of us are the opposite.I personally Over research and then have difficulty picking out the most relevant information(unless given a specific answer to look for).What I do very poorly is ...."busy work",if I know the infromation is pointless and wont be used,I may have difficulty motivating myself to do it.

The other major problem I have is "following rules" that I dont think are logical or are unethical to me.An EX.......At my job,I take care of animals.They tell me to clean up the dogs rooms if they have peed BUT tell me I should not take them out of their rooms to go to the bathroom because they could attack me????I know a dog is more likely to attack when feeling cornered and know the difference between a scared an agressive animal and a friendly one and would avoid the former(not cleaning their room until another staff is around)Now,I have been told several times not to take them out to pee nd they have videotapes,so they can check...but I keep doing it because their reasoning is so illogical that I just cant make myself follow it.This is also part of an in ability to have "respect" for someones title.We are not good at the a**kissing that many NT's learn in preschool.I respect people because they are nice or hard workers...not because of their "rank" and I dont know how to fake this.

As far as the person using emails instead of phone or face to face....that is much more comfortable for us.I have problems communicating face to face(social anxiety,dont read nonverbals anyway,so it doesnt aid in communication...also,hearing problems on phone if there is background noise)I think you should accomidate her on this.

Not answering emails...unless they are chit-chat...tell her she needs to respond within a specific time period.If she in engaged in a task at work it is hard for her to stop...answer email....recontinue the task....thats how or brains work,so limit the emails to essential only.She isnt not answering as a "slight" as many NTs inturpript this behavior...but becuase she gets ingrossed in another task and forgets them?

Doing things with out proper authorization....You have to be very specific when giving tasks.Write every thing out if you can,so she can refer back to it.If you tell me once that it is OK to send in the Proect A when I am done....I may think you said...."When you are done with your projects....send them in"

We have problems with nonverbal communication....be specific and direct.W dont read between the lines,may not see your look of hesitation r shared looks between co-workers.

Her co-workers may use her as a scapegoat because she is different and sometimes difficult.It's part of your job to make sure that doesnt happen.This isnt highschool and if she IS aspie,I can almost gaurantee you,that she is a hard worker who wants to do a good job.

I hope this helps a little.I am sure others will fill in some of the blanks I missed.I think this is a great first step that you want to understand what is going on and try and resolve it(instead of just "burnig the freak at the stake",mentality,so thanks... )I hope my boss is an understanding if she has "issues" with me.

c-ed,

Wow! A good NT. Sounds aspie to me. Short of a full neuro-divirsity thing, your words sound like good management to me.

All workers are problem children, some worse than others. I think written directions best, number the points, a job description, do this, dont do that. All at once a lot, but item at a time it can be dealt with. Some things are best done by asking a direct question, then wait.

We got this thing, the aspie pause. It is a delay in being able to say what we think. Give time, and aspies are very honest. Sometimes there is a reason, sometimes it was just hurry to please someone. It can get way off point. Written boundries do not change. Function #3, reply to emails promptly, by end of day or first thing in the morning. Notify A when task B is completed.

You show a clear vision of expected job performance and behavior limits. I would say to write it up for the worker. Most people are concerned about their job performance. There are some weak spots that will show up on a future performance review, here is a cheat sheet, how you can improve your status.

Some things happen because there were no clear guidelines, and what everyone knows, aspies do not have a clue it exists. They have to be told things you would not tell a child.

Aspies are different, but very truthful, to the point of being blunt and insulting, without meaning to. They are good natured and though socially awkward, often have problems starting a conversation, reports not delivered, if someone else starts, when done deliver the report to A, they do.

Just to put some overall order to it, there are 2,000,000 in the US, most get along well. They are truthful and law abiding, so compared to the 5,000,000 in prison, another twenty million on probation and parole for felonies, and the fifty million in and out of the funny farm, or a life of drink and drugs, aspies are not bad to have around. There are more murderers walking around than aspies.

They are worth a little extra effort to turn them into dependable long term employees. They can be bright, but do need direction and bounds. You did your homework on this one so you must care. One thing across the room moves, and an aspie twenty foot away feels compressed, and tries to move their desk. They do well with one or two people and fall apart with three. Give them space and low social interaction, script their conversations, the boss said I should give you this, and the boss started the conversation.

If I met you in your office, I would remember, could find my way back, but if two hours later I met you at the grocery store, I would have no idea who you are or why you are speaking to me. I am face blind. Walking through your office I would check out the IT, and know every computer, printer, network, and would like to talk to your server. I can fix any of it, but can not make one minute of small talk with several people. I am task oriented. Mostly I say, at what I charge, I have to work every minute.

There are some odd cases, take Krex and taking the dogs out to pee. Truth is the dog asked her most politely, so she could not say no, but then has to make up complex stories for the humans.

If is is just office and humans you should be able to train your aspie with clear written guidelines.

This is a first for me, I have talked to parents, but never employers. Aspies have been misunderstood, bullied, but want to find a place they fit in. The potential is there for a great employee.

They have a few quirks, verbal stuff, face to face or phone, gets mixed with background noise and lost, text is much better. Look an aspie in the eye and their brain stops. Touching can cause a total freekout. But for a clear task without social demands, or very structured limited social demands, they can work well.

It's the OP again. Thanks to all who have replied so far, and I'm so relieved that no one was bothered by anything I said! I was worried about that. Interesting that you all assumed that I'm B's boss; I'm not. I'm just someone B works with on occasion. I have had issues with B since B has been employed with us. I was under the impression that B was rude and sort of willfully disrespectful, but I have also always had a nagging suspicion that something else was going on. It was as though you had to always explain to B things that anyone should already know, and that didn't make sense at all. How could you get to be almost 30 and not know certain things? So out of curiosity I did some digging, thought of autism, and then landed on AS. It seems to fit. And now that I suspect that there may be a REASON for this behavior, I am inclined to feel less frustrated/offended and more compassionate.

I am currently having an issue about a project I have given to B. I am having trouble getting a good end product. I initially told B verbally what I wanted, and B said she understood and had no questions. Then the end product arrived and it was not what I was looking for. I tried another tack and emailed a response with instructions, thinking I would try it B's way (email vs face to face). I learn better from verbal instructions, but maybe not everyone is. I consulted our supervisor about this and his solution is to have a meeting with the 3 of us. Is this a good idea or a bad one? And with 3 of us in a room, would that just be too much? I have trouble because B always tells me she understands (I think she may know how to make the "Oh! OK" noises that indicate understanding?), but past experience has told me that I can't trust that. What should I do when B says she understands but it doesn't seem like she does? I don't want to be insulting, and I want to take her at her word, but I am skeptical.

I do want to say one more thing. As an NT with very little experience with people who have AS, it's not that we don't care; it's that we genuinely don't understand. It doesn't even occur to us. It's ignorance in the original sense of the word. It's not purposeful discrimination at all. (At least for me) I thought B was rude and manipulative, but now I think maybe I was wrong; maybe her brain doesn't work like mine. That makes it easier to deal with, for me. I get that our society is more geared toward me than people with AS. But we just genuinely don't understand, and we tend to think that other people think like we do. We have very little practical experience to the contrary. Think about all the "NT" things you just don't understand: small talk, etc. I'm guessing it doesn't occur to you to do this? Same thing with us. Learning about other people, from all sides, really does go a long way. I am already feeling more kindly toward B than I ever have.

Thanks again for the time you have taken to respond to my questions. I am learning a lot from you and I am pleased with the dialogue. Learning about each others' differences does make all the difference.

I am glad we could be of some help.

The DX for AS was not available before 1994 and it is difficult even now to get a DX,more so for females.So the chances are she doesnt know about AS and I can guarantee,she has had no assistence with dealing with her issues.I cant DX her over the internet and certainly not through second hand accounts.I can tell you,that is she has AS,many of the things you are describing are unintentional.The following are things I have learned about myself, others with AS on this site and books by "experts" on AS.

Most people with AS,do not like to lie.The are not socially sophisticated enough to consciously manipulate people.They may try and persuade through debate but not intentional manipulate.Pardon this regression but it has a point....When I was in grade school,my mother would yell at me for crying and tell me that she would "not be manipulated by my tears".... I found this very illogical as my tears were due to my sadness,pain or confusion.......the fact that her behavior might be influenced by trying did not occur to me nor was it the "reason" I was crying(I have seen kids do this,so I am aware of it now).

When people assign people "motives" for their actions based on Their own reasons for that behavior...it is called projection.I can assure you,that my motives are very different from many NTs.My world view is different.If I offer suggestions or solutions for something that I see as a problem that I MAY have a different perspective on....I am not doing so to insult anyone,to over step my "title"(which I have mentioned I am not influenced by),or even to get attention,approval or a promotion......I do so for one purpose.It's how my mind works.I see patterns,I see problems and solutions...I think ALL the time(one reason I am poor at socializing,I would rather be thinking then talking chit-chat...it's what I enjoy.So,if I make a suggestion,it is because I think it may work....maybe it wont,but I make the suggestion to try and be helpful.

Teamwork....you think you need teamwork to get the job done.You like to build relationships.I dont really want to be your friend(some aspies want friends,some dont have much need for them)Well,do you need your computer to be your friend,your color copier?What you need is to be able to have them work and no what buttons to push and which to avoid to get the machine to do what you intended.Some times computers get "glitches",sometimes the operator isnt punching in the right code.

She says she "get it"(but doesnt,or you are not sure)....After someone has explained to me for the third time....I get a little embarassed.I probably say "I get it" out of embarrassment and fear of the person thinking I am stupid.I then spend the next few hours processing what they have said and looking at the thing I need to do until I can figure it out on my own.According to IQ tests and a college degree...I am not ret*d.Sometimes,the way someone explains things...they might as well be talking in a foreign language....I think it's because they dont explain it well and they think it's cause I dont listen or am stupid(maybe we are both at fault...communication by definition...takes at least 2,to work).I want to understand....they want me to understand,no point in pointing fingers at who is at fault,try explaining it a different way and ask her to repeat back what she thinks you said???(thats all the rage in therepy...maybe it works?)

Meeting with the boss.What is your boss like.Can you speak to them about your suspicions about AS?Are they patient and understanding or brisk and authoritarian?I obviously have some "authority issues",may have nothing to do with my AS but her reaction may be different.

What I would want someone to do for me......Ask me to meet them in a quit,low light place(I have problems with sound and light when trying to understand people.Maybe ,even a none work environment.As directly as possible,tell me their issues and allow me time to respond.See if we can work out some comprimises.

I would personally love it if someone told me about AS and let me research it.I cant even tell you the number of adults who have come on this site and found relief after years of confussion and struggle(and misdiagnoses)We dont think of ourselves as ret*d,so if someone said I seemed aspie.....I wouldnt find it offensive.I would be greatful.( Your milage may vary)

I guess we assumed you were Bs boss because you seem to be assuming the responsibility for "dealing with" B.

Ok, a few thoughts.

First, I like that you have some curiosity about and insight into this person. Many NTs would write him off as a weirdo and think no more of the matter other than to wish him gone. Kudos to you on that!

That said, two things you wrote that bothered me, that I would like to get out of the way:

1- It is none of anyone's business what B does at a party. Parties are not a part of his job.

2- Unless B is a masseur, salesman, or wal mart greeter, It is hard for me to imagine how her job "requires social interaction" as long as she does not infringe on the rights of others (though it sounds like she has to some extent). As long as she does her job well, what right does anyone have to expect her to schmooze and gladhand around all day? Leave her alone and let her work.

I hope I didn't scare you off

Ok here's how you deal with an ASer who's causing trouble at work. Find a quiet time when she doesn't appear too busy to talk. Then sit her down privately and explain that there's a problem, but that you are confident she can fix it if she applies herself, and explain, clearly, what the problem is.

NTs could save us a lifetime of trouble if they did this mroe often instead of using their energy to gossip and speculate behind our backs.

Do not drop hints. she will not pick them up.

Do not expect her to figure it out for herself. She never will.

Talk. To. Her.

I wish there were more NTs around like you. Good luck and keep us posted!

>1- It is none of anyone's business what B does at a party. Parties are not a part of his job.

It was a company party, which kind of IS work, if you know what I mean. In that one's presence or absence or behavior at such events can reflect on promotions, etc. Sad but true. (I actually hate those things too and always feel uncomfortable at them. Sometimes I skip them altogether.) But IIRC I just mentioned it as one of the "these are the things I noticed about B" in my original post. Not a judgment, just an observation of something you (I) don't see every day. I apologize if you misinterpreted my meaning on that one.

>Unless B is a masseur, salesman, or wal mart greeter, It is hard for me to imagine how her job "requires social interaction" as long as she does not infringe on the rights of others (though it sounds like she has to some extent). As long as she does her job well, what right does anyone have to expect her to schmooze and gladhand around all day? Leave her alone and let her work.

OK. This seems to be an area of real misunderstanding. When I say "social interaction," I don't mean schmoozing and gladhanding at all. I'm not even talking about chitchat, how was your weekend, how's little Johnny feeling because I know he was sick last week. When I say "social interaction," I am talking about other employees approaching B and asking "Can you do X for me?" and B responding in some way. I am talking about walking up to someone and asking a question if she has one. Just communicating information. No one is asking her to be Bill Clinton (or insert your super-social famous person of choice). And the point is that she isn't doing her job well and I think it's because of the lack of communication. Again, in the information-exchange sense.

I'm really not into forcing people to be a social butterfly. I swear. I am not all that social myself. (Before you say it, I know it's not the same for me as it is for her! That would be like saying someone who felt sad once understands depression.)

>Ok here's how you deal with an ASer who's causing trouble at work. Find a quiet time when she doesn't appear too busy to talk. Then sit her down privately and explain that there's a problem, but that you are confident she can fix it if she applies herself, and explain, clearly, what the problem is.

I almost wish I were her boss now because it isn't really my prerogative to talk about this with her. I am nervous about suggesting to anyone else my suspicions about AS. I don't want to "out" her (especially if I'm wrong!); it's not my place at all. On the other hand, I am sure most people would be a LOT more understanding if they had a clue she probably has no ill intent. I am positive that my boss would be really understanding and supportive if I did mention it. Have to think about that one.

>Do not drop hints. she will not pick them up. Do not expect her to figure it out for herself. She never will. Talk. To. Her.

I'm WAY beyond dropping hints! I'm trying to talk to her. It's just I feel like I'm navigating without a net. Everything I know about how to communicate is wrong. (Hmm... I wonder if this is a small taste of your experiences?) I'm not getting through. Or I am getting through, but I can't see any signals that I am. I actually tried mentioning that there seemed to be some communication problems between us, and asked her if anything was going on. Didn't help. I guess I need to be more direct.

>I wish there were more NTs around like you. Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks! And also thanks for all your assistance!

I still dont think it is "out of hand" to speak with your boss about this topic.The way you described him/her,they might be a good buffer.Obviously something has to change.If she is an aspie,she wants to do a good job,not just get by and not annoy people.
She may not be a good fit for the job.I would be horrible at many jobs,no matter how hard I tried....(true of anyone.)I have avoided jobs that require instant multi-tasking(I can do some,once tasks become routin),but would over-load if forced to do so constantly(which might account for even poorer social skills...just one more task for us).

Just a thought....even with a psych background,dont assume that she knows about AS.It is a "specialty field"and poorly described in the statistical manuel.Hell,I was a psych major in college(87), and managed to skip the chapter on "alcoholism",took being homeless to figure out I might have a problem and do some research about it.She knows something is wrong and even may have a DX for depression or bi-polar from a psych who knows little about AS.My own GP told me I couldnt be AS(when asked for a referal)because ...."You can talk"... ....there is a lot of misinformation and lack of information about this DX.9and skepticism from "old school" psychs.Dont give them to much credit,some of them are crazier then their clients...

So,I still think it would be worth sending your boss an email with a link to AS info and your suspicions about your co-worker.I think she needs to know.I think the co-worker would like to know as well.I know it's "touchy",all these boundarys and stepping on toes and all...maybe she isnt AS...might be Border-line...very annoying at times,manipulative as hell and share some AS traits....ASers,can have more then one "issue",lots of co-morbids.

Whats the worse thing that cold happen>She could quit(and maybe end up homeless,suicidal,or find a better fitting job).She could be greatful and find some long needed answers in her life.She could end up getting fired or hurt the company, if the issue isnt resolved.Try not and project the outcome.There really is no way to know the future.If you are acting from a "good motive" it will probably have a more positive outcome,and it seems like you are.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Wow. I actually purposely tried NOT to use metaphors in my postings here. Guess I missed a few. And no, B isn't actually physically stepping on anyone. LOL.

I have no idea whether I use metaphors talking to B. Probably so, since it seems I can't NOT use them even when I try. Thanks for the tip; I'll watch for that.