If an employer doesn't like an employee,

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iamnotaparakeet
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13 Sep 2008, 11:05 am

Then is it common for the employer to seek any excuse to get rid of the employee?



Mindovermatter
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13 Sep 2008, 12:26 pm

yes. go union. and learn ALL the rules



LabPet
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13 Sep 2008, 3:32 pm

Employer can fire and not disclose the reason. I could totally understand if an employee is not doing their job, is not motivated (like being late often, sloppy), doesn't represent their place of work as indicated, etc. But in theory employer cannot fire based just upon they dislike their employee - exception: If that employee has shown a personality or 'style' of being difficult. 'Difficult' means worker is argumentative, obnoxious, disrespectful, or instigates dissension amongst others workers. Firing one who is 'difficult' is justifiably but certainly other workers would back-up their employer on this determination.

But firing an employee, without notice of due cause, can mean something else - then, what's going on? Discrimination is very hard to prove legally but it's nevertheless very real. Apparently in the US cases of discrimination, even if/when blatant (!) are LOST 90% of the time! Often a discriminatory employer or agency/business will cover-up discrimination and it's hard to prove.

In Alaska there is what is called 'at will' firing. This means an employer can fire 'at will,' and not disclose why. This is rather scary since this clause can be misused.

Yes, unions can help since they provide solidarity. Personally, I would NEVER work for a place without knowing all their policies, and have a lawyer CHECK them out. And the employer. They employer checks you out, which is fine! Then you check them out too. Of course, you must always be respectful but cautious!

For one with Autism / AS, LOOK OUT. A very conservative/convention place that is NOT familiar with you or your difference, where you know NO ONE is DANGER! Be sure you know at least a few, and at least 1 or 2 'higher-ups' and your difference, IF IT'S NOTICABLE ONLY, is known. Otherwise, if you have a virulent/meant and uneducated employer they'll hunt you down like prey. Offer your workplace a way to learn of autism (yes, this type of education is available for clue-less co-workers) - otherwise they'll 'guess' and you're doomed.

Caveat: If you're an Aspie, for example, and your difference is not really noticable, then no need to mention. Otherwise, ADA! Don't go without legal back-up. And enforce it.

I am very quiet/gentle but can be formidable. I learned the hard way. I had a female supervisor, with no education but an Associated Degree who 'decided' to assign herself as my personal doctor, coach, and her behavior became quickly violent - not kidding. She was abusive to the core and very deceitful. She could have been jailed (NOT kidding) for stalking and abuse.

I am a scientist and brainy; I don't do female supervisor with personality disorder who BULLIES, teases, harasses, and torments. Never again. I am an exemplary worker, very quiet and motivated. Don't let this nightmare happen to you or anyone.

Just one thing she did at my lab: I had offered to do a lab procedure, flash points, since I know how and it needed to be done. She knew I have an enhanced sensory modality - autism. Anyway, her words to me, which she repeated (and was allowed to say): "No. You'll become catatonic."

And more, more, more. The lab manager, whom I did not even know, was impotent and chose not to act when he knew supervisor was mistreating me. That lab made a major mistake and they paid. But I suffered and still suffer. I don't process pain well and it's hard to just 'get over.'

I'm in a far better place and when I am a PhD I will work in my interests and always be sure NO ONE is treated as I was. I am extra caring. I TA in my academic program (chem lab) and I am protective. I would NEVER let another be hurt. If I know of a student who 'doesn't quite fit in' for whatever reason(s), I am certain they're never chosen last as a lab partner (this hurts) and are treated well. If necessary, I will partner with them. No bullying policy and I bully's aren't allowed in my lab.

Don't let an employer play tricks of discrimination and bullying - this is bigotry.


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Fnord
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13 Sep 2008, 4:03 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
... is it common for the employer to seek any excuse to get rid of the employee?

Yes. More than you likely know.

Even with a union, it can easily be done. Just thoroughly document the individual's actions, as well as the actions of all others within the same work group or labour unit. Then, give a verbal warning to the individual and one or two others for the same offense. Then a written warning. Then, arbitration or counselling may be offered. If the offending behavior continues, then a case can be made for termination of employment.

No union? Just terminate the employment. California has a 'No Cause' firing law. One day you're there, the next day you're not.

About 30 years ago, I worked for a place that had a union. Some of the warehouse guys were rather loud and rowdy, Management didn't like that, and they tried to get the workers to tone down the noise. But whenever Management was not present, the noise came back up (mostly loud music, which led to shouting to be heard above the noise). Then one day, management mandated uniforms for all workers, but at no cost to the workers. Each worker simply signed for shirts, slacks, coveralls, or whatever was appropriate for their work. The uniforms remained the property of the company, which handled all repairs and laundry services. Nice, huh?

Most of the people didn't mind, but the warehouse guys expressed their displeasure by ripping sleaves off the shirts. Next thiong you know, the warehouse supervisor and two of his favorite workers were fired for "Wilful damage and/or destruction of corporate property", and replaced them from within the unionized shop.

Everything was according to the letter of the law, as well as the union contract. "Wilful destruction" being one of the few conditions under which Management could immediately terminate any union member's employment.

One way or another, even a union employee can be fired if Management takes a dislike to him.


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demeus
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13 Sep 2008, 4:31 pm

Actually, in the USA as a whole, it is very easy to fire an employee whom the employer does not like. Does not matter if you are an at-will employee or in a union shop with a contract. Even the ADA is no help in these regards.

In an at-will shop, you can be fired for just about anything and usually have no recourse (the usual discriminatory exceptions apply). For example, you could be fired for simply wearing footwear that your boss does not like, having a hair do that your boss does not like, or any other reason that is not related to the government taboos.

As for a union shop, true that the boss is tied into you contract, but he has another way to get rid of you. Anyone who has been in the workforce for a short amount of time will realize that in most jobs, you cannot get the job done without breaking some sort of rule or screwing yourself over in some way. All the boss has to do is to start to enforce all of the rules, then wait until you either break one or your performance goes down, and then gets rid of you. On top of that, if the boss is working in cohorts with the union steward, then you have no union recourse (even if you paid the dues). Happens more often than you would care to know.

The best thing you can do if you think a boss is gunning for you is to get out as fast as you can. Don't worry about the former boss screwing up your chances at another job. More likely than not, he is restricted on what he can say to a possible employer by company policy due to fear of a lawsuit.



Fnord
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13 Sep 2008, 4:48 pm

Yeah, Demeus, unions suck. They take your money in exchange for the illusion of job security, but a corrupt steward can make your life just as miserable as if there were no union at all - sometimes, it's even worse.

Most of my earliest jobs were in union shops. There is nothing that could convince me to be a union member ever again.


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CelticRose
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13 Sep 2008, 11:48 pm

Yes, if an employer doesn't like an employee they will seek any excuse to get rid of the employee. I have had this happen to me more than once.

I recently had to deal with this again, but this time I think I managed to keep from getting fired. The director of my department took a sudden dislike to me, and found an excuse to have me written up. I made sure to be on my best behavior at all times and keep quiet and just focus on my work. I was very careful not to give her any excuse to fire me. She kept trying to provoke me, but I wouldn't rise to her bait and reported each instance to my supervisor and to Human Resources. Eventually, she annoyed one of the owners (nothing to do with me), and she was fired. I still have my job.

Another thing I have learned is to save all communications. I have had bosses tell me to do something and then "forget" and say they told me to do something else. If you show them the email with their original instructions, their memory suddenly improves.

Always, CYA!


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Keith
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14 Sep 2008, 1:39 am

From the posts above this it appears as though you are all in the states from what I can see based on your locations.
It's the same in the UK and I was astounded to hear that a number of supervisors were looking into ways of getting rid of me which compelled me to find out more. Well, apparently I was rude to customers. I had a bad shoulder and saying the same thing over and over would've lost all meaning just the same as barking at them like a dog, would get boring after a while. It's surprising how many people *expect* you to pack their shopping for them. "Aren't you going to pack it as well?" I had a bad shoulder at the time and still do really. Can't hold anything too long as if I hold any object too long my ability to keep my arm/hand still starts to wander and I can get close to full shaking or dropping.

It truly amazes me that employers talk amongst other employees about wanting rid of them. Unfortunately after working in a small grocery store or for the UK people (Tesco Express) I was told that I could have AS... Would've been easier to know before then, maybe not. Although the more I think about it, I would presume they would have used that against me too.

There is no fire at will law here, there has to be a genuine reason first. In my current job I wonder who is higher, the manager (who is currently 19 at the time of writing this post) or myself.

I do find it best not to tell the employer about AS as I think they may see another reason against hiring you in the first place. Or see you as unable to do the job at hand. There is something here, I can not remember what it is exactly, but it's a requirement I think made by government about employing someone with *a* disability in the workplace. Not sure what the implications are if this isn't adhered to