playdates AS child with NT child (3 y.o.)

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My close friend has a child, 3 y.o, with AS. I'm sure that she has AS, but she has not been evaluated for autism yet. Because her parents are not there yet, and her symptoms are not so severe. I work in Early Intervention, but not specifically with the kids on the spectrum.
School district didn't take her after she turned three years old, before she was in an Early intervention program and they recommended her for a social group, but the district is tight on funds, as I understand. My friend doesn't think that her child has autism. But I see all the symptoms: inability to appropriately communicate with other children, insists on sameness, plays a lot alone, some odd speech patterns, comes to the parents only if she needs something, like getting somewhere, or something, little eye contact, extreme selfishness, etc.

I don't want to prove Mom that her child has AS, but she really needs help. Right now she is in denial of AS, but she knows that something is wrong. So, I started doing playdates with child and my daughter of the same age, with providing some assistance in communication.
Here I encountered a couple of problems. My NT child is happily approaches my friend's child, but often gets rejected, screamed at or hit. We try to correct her behavior, but not always helps. Plus, my dd imitates my friend's child a lot, especially the bad things, like screaming or pushing. So, my friend's daughter seems to be happy during the playdates, but I get an impression, that I do a wrong thing for my dd. What is your experience from the playdates with NT kids? How hard was it for them and how much help did you provided?

Second question: I try to understand my friend's daughter, her behavior, and intentions. But sometimes I find it very hard just to like her. I have read so many books on autism and AS, it helped me. But personally I get so irritated by all those odd manners with me and my dd. Sometimes it looks like my friend's child doesn't show her relation to the people at all, except "I want this, or I want that". I feel that she sees people as the means of getting something she needs. If you could help me to understand her: why she never smiles back to me, why she starts screaming when I take her hand, as if I want to kill her, why she never gives things, but only grabs toys and runs away?

I really want to love her, but it seems she doesn't care.

Thank you!

is your love for someone impacted by how warm they are to you?


maybe if actual interactions weren't so influential over your ability to feel someone's heart.

could negative interaction ever actually warrant an increase in the love that you feel?

ex. (not necessarily appicable to your situation): if a person is bitter and distant, that could evidence that they are hurt on the inside, a sensative creature that has been hurt and doesn't know how to respond to the world. that maybe they need love even more because of this. could you respect that and love them from a distance?

i think this world has a way of chastising those that have been hurt creating an unbreakable cycle of negativity and despair.

I'm not saying at all that your feelings are wrong in any way. your reaction, the way you feel about the situation, is a biological response that is necessary for humans in nature to find a place to fit in, but society dictates that we change a lot of natural bahaviors for the benefit of those around us.

i suppose it can take some soul searching.

Last edited by Shayne on 04 May 2008, 4:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

Good answer.

Please remember her age - she's been on the Earth for only 3 years. IMHO I don't think you can or should assign the label of selfish or manipulative to a 3 year old. She may scream when you touch her because she has sensory issues -maybe it hurts? she may scream because that is her only coping mechanism right now. I have known many NT 3 year olds who are as annoying as the supposedly AS child you described. I also completely understand why you might not "like" the child. I have an 11 year old son with AS - he can be annoying but so can a lot of the 11 year old NT kids he's around.

It's wonderful that you have the compassion and heart to care enough to come on this board and try to figure it out. You don't have to "like" the child but you have to LOVE the child and see that she is a baby and you are an adult. As another poster said it may require some soul searching. In your profession of Early Intervention do you like every child you encounter? probably not. Are you comparing this child to your own? The child deserves to not be compared to others but to be compassionately understood as her own unique (maybe even annoying) self.

This little girl is still at an age where she can be easily overwhelmed. I didn't realize how many sensory issues I had myself until I started working with my son on his, but things like touching can feel like an invasion of personal space. With all children I think you have to let them make the contact, not force it on them. They need to feel comfortable in that particular moment, and children can be very fickle with these things. So, I would recommend a slower approach. Ask before moving into her personal space. Give a sense of warning that something is about to change, and seek her acceptance of it before moving further. This would apply for many kids who don't have AS, but who are just sensitive or shy. Tell your daughter to wait for the other girl to initiate, and to see what happens if she follows her lead, instead. That will be difficult for your daughter, if she is naturally social, but also a good lesson for her on how to deal with different temperaments.

Kids, and especially AS kids, can't be expected to smile on demand. Yes, you can explain that a smile is the most appropriate and polite response to someone smiling at you, but it takes a while for young children to integrate that. For some it is more natural than for others. It can be AS, but it can also be developmental.

Personally, I think at age 3 children should be allowed to be who they are, without having to learn to be like other kids, except to the extent most necessary. Perhaps this child senses that you want her to act more like your daughter, without appreciating her uniqueness. Play dates are great, but they shouldn't be about changing something in either child, just about giving them the opportunity to learn to interact with each other, and to appreciate each other, as they are.

For years I kept my AS son's playdates mostly at our house, and it is still my preference. He simply is more comfortable in his own environment, and less likely to act in an unacceptable way. Once he knows a family and they understand him, then he can go there. But he gets overwhelmed by the different environments pretty easily. Plus, when I've got my eyes on things, I can help the children negotiate in the way I know works best for my son. Tell the other child to hold back for a minute, for example. Make sure the other child knows it isn't a rejection of him, but of the interruption at that moment. Things with my son are simply a little different than they are with other kids, and if one doesn't understand that you won't see the best of him. And the best of him is truly unique, cool and worth seeing.

On the mother's denial of AS: You mention she know something is wrong, so maybe you should be "pushing" her towards some sort of medical assessment on the basis that early intervention is better than not knowing. In my country we can refer to the hospital, even if it's just an "I'm not sure, but I'd like to check this out thing".

On the whole playdate issue: While I admire you willingness to help, I think 3 yrs old is quite young to be having playdates without both parents present, if their is suspicion of AS. The 3 yr old is probably just starting to move into the realm where all these AS symptoms are starting to manifest socially, and (from what I've experienced) it will take years of constantly reinforcing social rules to make marked improvement. The majority of this "help" is going to need to come from the parents, and if they aren't doing it in the first place, you are probably only fighting a losing battle because there is no consistency to it all.
I have a 7 yr old AS son, and have to admit that I have given the whole playdate thing the flick in the meantime. The few playdates he has had with school friends were always at my suggestion, and while they went averagely, I was just faced with feeling constant pressure to try and intervene the whole way through and make him look as NT as possible. I know people say that you should give AS kids social situations to help them develop skills, but he gets that from having a brother and sister, from having their friends and kids that are family friends over, and there are plenty of instances at school as well. He knows he doesn't have any friends of his own, but he doesn't seem too perturbed about it. I just figure, why push him to have friends if he is happy enough doing his own thing?

Regarding you struggling with negative feelings about her behaviour: If she has AS then she has a disability, and the behaviour is not her fault. Of course the behaviour frustrates us, but if we become almost resentful of the person then it is a bit like being angry at a kid in a wheelchair because they won't walk, when there is actually a medical explanation for it. I found my son's diagnosis was a huge turning point in our journey with him, as it explained his behaviour and I could then move onto working on improving it and, at the same time, not hold him accountable for not naturally knowing how to behave (to a certain extent, of course).

All the best .

Shayne, you give me a very good point. Personally I met only parents, monks and priests who are able to love others for nothing, without getting anything back and without expecting anything back. It is interesting, but I noticed that it is harder to express sympathy toward the people who really need it, but do not do anything to earn it. It is so easy to like a child who is warm and cute, and much harder when a child is cold and distant. Why does it look like they do not need you with your smiles, sympathy, etc? It's not about people on the spectrum, but it is true about some of them. It's like they don't need other people except their parents, avoiding others. I'm not talking about specific sensory issues, that justify avoidance, but it's often not the case.



rachel46, thank you for your answer! It's good to know that I don't have to like her all the time. But I do love her!

When I'm at work, it seems easy for me to love children, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to work with them. With this girl I'm not able to express my warm feeling toward her all the time. But even parents often start hating their own children even for a couple of minutes, when they get mad at them. I have tons of patience with my child, but sometimes start losing it with my friend's daughter, just because she is different and I don't have enough professional experience to deal with her behavior. Her mom has less patience with her daughter than me right now, but she is with her 24/7.

DW_a_mom, thank you for the great ideas about a slower approach. I always thought that it was meant for the kids with low functioning autism, who don't notice other people at all. But it could be true with any AS child. I will tell it to her mom. She already adapted to her daughter a lot, giving her more time to finish play, talking to her in a low voice - almost whispering in her ear, when she wants her to do something. But taking her hand and even gentle pulling is often a problem - may lead to a tantrum.
Concerning initiation, my friend's daughter likes to run or jump together, screaming in hight-pitched voices. This is the only activity they successfully play together with eye contact and lots of laugh. I have to start planning lessons with the roles that include initiation on the girl's side. If you have a good resource, I would be more that thankful.

I feel that it's not just a coincidence that I'm her godmother and at the same time an Early Childhood Special Ed specialist. Now I see myself as the only resource for her parents in this field. When I give some tactics to her mom, she is always very thankful and says that much of it works.
I do not appreciate her destructive "antisocial" behavior, because I have to show her another way of communicating with other people.

if you are talking about children in general (and above the age of 3 to 4 years old)...

sometimes it is a defense mechanism... they have learned that if they let a person know they need help, then they can be seen as weak/exploitable... even at ages of 7 to 8...

especially the ones who need it the most... because the children who nedd the smiles and sympathy the most are usually the ones that have been let down/exploited already... it is a trust issue... and i'm not talking about abuse (or not only abuse) but with other children and mean teachers...

specifically about people on the spectrum... it is a facial expression issue, combined with the fact that they don't want to need anyone other than their parents... and sometimes don't see why they are forced to deal with other people...

again it can be trust issue... parents are trustworthy... usually... for children on the spectrum I beleive most trust other people easier for one chance... but they only give one chance, then it must be earned back... and an NT can lose their chance without even knowing it, for reasons that they didn't even know were reasons...

Yes, you are right! Now her AS gets more visible, though I suspected something since she was 20 months, before that I just considered her as object-oriented child. Her parents do a lot of things that I advised them to deal with her difficult behavior. That stuff I read from the numerous books on autism.
And it's interesting, that earlier I couldn't understand how these kids get their diagnosis by the age of 6-10 years old. It is the age when it is more obvious than at 3-5 years old.
I started pushing the parents to do an assessment, but not to hard. i feel like they have to get to the point where it is clear, that she needs help and a diagnosis. I don't know, it's so hard for me to talk about autism with them. When they really will need it, they will get assessment and a diagnosis, I think.

[quote="tichoAnd it's interesting, that earlier I couldn't understand how these kids get their diagnosis by the age of 6-10 years old. It is the age when it is more obvious than at 3-5 years old. [/quote]

Yep, it usually starts becoming a lot more obvious when they hit school. Five or so hours a day, totally emersed in 20-30 kids of their own peer group, starts bringing out all the social issues and reactions to routine changes etc. They started showing concern about my son when he'd been at school a couple of terms (although pre-school had commented on some lack of social skills). Diagnosis at age 6.