Apathy, independence, and lack of empathy

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you need to read the Family Crucible dude. you can find it in any library. it's from 1970.

I appreciate that you and your partner's relationship is much more complex than it seems for us here reading your posts. However, it does seem that both you and your son are complying with your partner's demands more than is reasonable.

One thing that really struck me about your original post was that your son has been grounded for two months. Two months is a long time for anyone, adult or child. Such a long period of time is actually likely to be counter-productive, and quite apart from anything else, you son isn't even going to remember what he was grounded for. He is likely to become resentful and more stubborn - I know I would.

I'm glad that he's going to continue with his TKD class.

I also think that your idea of replacing the written list with a visual chart is a good one. Many people here have or are using such a chart. Another tip with such a chart seems to be to move it every so often, so it doesn't just become part of the wall.

It is very common for children with Asperger's to know how to do something, like brushing their teeth, but forget to do it. One approach, the one I have adopted, is to accept that your son will forget, that he isn't doing it deliberately, and to get into the habit of routinely and calmly reminding him. Every time.

I am sorry for speaking my mind right off. I have a lot of experience with abuse situations and the red flags really did jump out at me. But, I haven't worked with that issue for some years and I can't say I handled the mention of it correctly. OK, I know I totally blew it. If you are aware this may be a part of the baggage brought into the relationship and are working on it in therapy, then I wish you all the success in the world. A partner who is willing to work on her issues is a positive thing.

As for lists v. picture charts, remember that AS are often referred to as "thinking in pictures." Which is why a picture chart might actually succeed where lists may not.

I think you'll see from the posts that people here are pretty universal in supporting your instincts on your son, and not your partner's desire to crack down harder on him. Structure is important to AS kids, but being too strict and rule oriented will backfire in a large way, and one of those is lying. The pattern I've noticed is that AS kids who can't figure out the world and conclude it's outright unfair are the most likely to resort to lying. So, that was another red flag, of another sort. He's CONFUSED, not defiant (hopefully, at least - if he sincerely has become defiant, I would say he has completely given up on the idea that either your or your partner can be reasonable beings in his AS distorted view, and that is even more complicated). And, quite likely, he is not finding the instructions and expectations clear, thus enabling him to come to the conclusion that everyone lies, so the adults in his life are being total hypocrits when they tell him not to. You and your partner need to work on clarity and communication to re-establish a sense of trust with him. Remember that AS kids takes things very, very literally and there is no "you know what I meant" in their minds. A question like, "did you wash your hands" is truthfully answered in their eyes with a "yes" if they have ever, in their lives, washed their hands. So, the question or instruction needs to be more precise. I strongly recommend that you break down in your mind some of the past blow ups to see how much this sort of thing may have come into play.

It is also important to realize that just because your partner WANTS to fix her behavior and be less controlling, doesn't mean she will be able to acheive it. What I've learned to do with my husband is to see the signs of stress, and then gently encourage him to do his de-stress rituals. I won't even say what I'm seeing, I'll just say, "you haven't had a chance to work out for a while. Why don't I handle things with the kids by myself tonight so you can go?" Stuff like that. Part of it is knowing what causes your partner stress and, well, your son's issues seem to be part of that with her. The cycle I mentioned in an earlier post.

It really isn't as simple as dealing with your son's behavior. You have moving parts in your family that all need to be worked out together. Yes, everyone does, but my personal experience has been that those who like to be controlling are the least likely to ever recognize it and work on it. They are very good at deflecting blame to someone else. Be aware that this is likely to be part of your partner's habits, and may be part of why things have gotten so bad with your son. It can be worked on and mitigated with all of you committed to doing that, and I sincerely hope that it is true, that you all are.

I am not trying to criticize, but I am challenging you. You NEED me to, whether you realize it or not. You are in a very complicated situation and it can be difficult to see things clearly. I've BEEN there. I KNOW.

Think about it. You didn't tell us in the first post that there was any history of abuse in either family or that you felt your partner could be controlling. And, yet, several readers guessed it. Because there is personal experience on this forum with the things you've talked about. So, please, don't take offense that many of us jumped to extreme recommendations - Aspie's can be overly blunt, you know (and I've gotten more so posting on this forum, even thought I'm more NT than AS myself). So maybe the statements went too far and overreached; but that doesn't mean the underlying concern should be dismissed. Just give it some thought, OK? And hopefully, I've given some more practical ideas in this post than I have in my earlier ones.

The problem is you first post gave the impression you had some problem with your partner's way of doing things.

I am still working on that assumption, but maybe you are in two minds.

Nobody mentioned abuse.

One thing that would make me run a mile is neurosis. Neurosis is the enemy. It doesn't matter whether the people have good intentions if they are neurotic and controlling it can creates a very hectic and confusing life for people like me.

People need to control things because they are narcissistic or have neurosis. Narcissistic is self explanatory, neurosis is down to anxiety, they feel helpless, or that something bad will happen if they don't have control over everything. Unfortunately it can spill over to other people's lives which are not good.

This kind of behaviour I don't think is compatible with helping you son with ground rules, because the intention is all wrong.

Yeah, and not allowed to draw.

Tayana,

Sorry, we all tend to jump the gun a bit here on WP. Post one "bad thing" and everyone pounds you. We've all been there and done that. None of us are perfect.

Usually, as the furore dies down and we re-read everything more calmly, you will start to get better responses. Unfortunately in the past, often the OP quits the forum (or even WP) long before that happens - yep... we're all really that abusive.

So. Sorry. Please stay. We'll behave.

I think that it's already been pointed out elsewhere that you could benefit from positive rather than negative reinforcement. Rewards instead of punishment.

Here is my suggestion;

Adult Conversation
Take your son out, just the two of you, for coffee. Do something where he's treated like an adult. Talk with him not at him. Tell him about how you feel, problems you face, things you remember from a similar age as a child. Tell him that you love him and that you want to stay together as a family. As for his help. Tell him that you don't know much about this parenting thing, that it doesn't get any easier and that when you get old, you don't feel old. You just feel like an inexperienced kid in an old body. I repeat... ask for his help. Ask him what he thinks you should do. How you can become close again. How the fights /arguements can stop.

Listen carefully to what he has to say. Don't dismiss anything and don't interrupt - even if you think he's telling you about things that don't work. There will be time for that later. Right now, he needs to be heard. Interrupting him will just hurt his self esteem and will stop him from talking.

When he's finished talking, think about what he has said and pick the best things out of his list to talk about. You don't have to discuss the things you didn't like unless he specifically wants to.

Tell him that you got a lot out of having coffee with him and ask him if he feels the same or if it was just a bit too much doing this with "dad". Tell him that you enjoyed it and suggest that you do it again - but next time, he can pick the location.

It might take a few coffees but if anything is troubling him, it will come out. Similarly, you'll build up trust between the two of you and be able to confide in eachother.

Actually, I did indirectly, and someone else was more blunt. There are potential red flags for emotional abuse issues in the posts. I am truly sorry to the OP for having been so straightforward about it, as I know how sensitive it all is, and how very difficult to see, and I am not IN the situation so cannot be 100% sure, but my track record with that instinct has been right on, and I'm not going to deny that I've felt that concern because the OP has a right to understand exactly where I'm coming from when I post. Still, I've gone about it all wrong, all of it. I haven't come at this the right way at all, but it's a little late for starting over from scratch, although I am trying to.

Tayana i'm sorry that you feel we are being unfair to you. I can't speak for "everyone" here, but many of us have extreme black and white thinking. We don't see grey area's, everything must be good or bad. So when you make a comment about your partner that is negative, it automatically makes her a very bad person. If you were to make another post after with comments that are positive, she'd suddenly be a very good person. A big proportion of the people on this forum, wether we'd admit it or not, only have the coping mechanisms of a 4 year old, If we say anything that insults you, or your family please just disregard it. Afterall, you know your partner, yourself and your son better than we do. Take what comments you think will be helpful from us and ignore the rest.

The black and white thinking can have an effect here as well. Your son more than likely remembers a time when he didn't have to do anything to recieve the rewards you are offering now. He could see this as further punishment or even blackmail. Both positive reinforcement and punishment rarely work for older kids. People learn by "doing", people "do" when they "need" to.

Most parents seem to like a production line and batch processing when it comes to chores, this can be at odds to people because they don't "need" to do the chore. If there is still a clean plate available, why clean a dirty one off? Would your son clean a dirty plate off when getting food, if there was no clean ones avaiable?

I think it would be helpful if your son had to get his own food and if you only stocked food that had to be made. If your son would clean plates off when there are no clean ones available, then maybe you should have less plates? Noone, and i include non-autistic people in this statement, will do things they feel they don't have to.

"Her comment to me was that, he knows how to brush his teeth, but he doesn't do it. How will that help him brush his teeth."

Please know I am trying to help here with your situation, but you and your sig other needs to understand about the tooth brushing and showering deal.

My son has a VERY logical mind. That means when I ask, direct, tell him to brush his teeth/shower he will look at me and say, but that doesn't make any sense, because he will just get dirty tomorrow.

And he's right. He will.

But then you might go into.... but if you don't brush your teeth, you will get cavaties, and they will hurt and then we have to get them fixed by a dentist.

Use Logic!! ! And a picture schedule! Give him a calender! Start off with you will brush your teeth every monday morning. Do this every monday morning until he gets into the routine.

Then after he gets that say, you will brush your teeth every monday morning and night. Get that into a routine. Then after he is comfortable keep slowly adding mornings and nights to it. Then by the time he is in the schedule of brushing, he won't need anyone else to remind him. He will know that at 9 oclock at night, he is to brush his teeth. And at 7 in the morning he will brush his teeth. Keep the same time the same. It will help.

When my son has a med change, he just can't handle it. I have to bring the meds to him every night at the same time. He balks and refuses for a week because it is a change. But after bringing him the other pill for a week, he gets used to me bringing it to him and finally complies. It works! It also helps with bringing him the same drink everytime (choc milk)

Try it with other things in his life and you might see a difference, and if you can explain and show your SO she might get a AHA moment.

Use the logic to help you guys.

I'm not saying to leave your SO, but there is a time when you have to stand up for your child and you really need to do so. I know I was a single parent myself for years.

I missed Learning2Survive post. I guess emotional abuse=bullying. Yep she is bullying it seems. Like I said narcissism and GAD/neurosis are potential culprits, but I suppose a history of abuse is also a factor.

People throw around the abuse word, so it is difficult to gauge.

I can't help but reiterate a point most parents might not agree with. But in my opinion, it's an elephant in the room. The "elephant" is power, power of choice, to be exact. How so? Look at it this way. Parents don't have to wash the dishes if they don't feel like doing it or don't see the need to do it. They can take a clean plate from the cupboard; reuse one dirty plate by washing it on the spot; use a new paper plate, and not have to wash it afterwards; or even decide "f'k it", and order a pizza (no cleaning afterwards, except one's hands). Children, on the other hand, never have these options. They have to do what they're told, including washing the dishes, and if they don't feel like it, too bad, so sad. It's no surprise that children start seeing all adults as hypocrites; I know I did. Kids aren't as naive as parents think (that's true even for aspie kids): they know how much power adults have, and how little power they have. Perhaps your son is utterly frustrated by such a power imbalance, and your partner's strictness isn't helping either.

I say give your son a week to live like a bachelor, and see how he likes it. In other words, look the other way as dirty dishes pile up in the sink, taking up so much space that there's no room to wash one's hands. Sooner or later, he'll find it unbearable and start cleaning everything up. At the end, point out how daily maintenance is easier than a weekly cleaning marathon. Try the best you can to look the other way, and avoid pointing out that something is dirty. Even words alone will make the whole experiment fail. Your son himself must reach a point where he'll decide that the dishes need to be washed.

Just for the records, I do weekly cleaning marathons, not daily maintenance, but I'm single and loving it. Your son, has to follow your rules for the time being. So the above paragraph is just a way to get him to psychologically buy into your way of doing things, so he would willingly cooperate when you tell him to do something.

Yeah, this was the basic idea i had as well. The whole "Do this or you'll get grounded" rarely works at this age. Once the plates are all dirty and the place is a pig sty, he'll realise there are "real consequences to his actions and inactions. Realise that you have to keep this going UNTIL it has an effect.



This statement it too true. As soon as you mention the plates being dirty, you drag the whole exercise into "ego" territory and he won't respond. If he has a meltdown, gets agressive, etc, you really do need to just look the other way, forget about punishment and not give in.