was told my son was manipulating me

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I took my 9 year old son to the behavior psychologist because of his behavior mainly at school and sometimes at home. She said it sounds like your son is manipulating you. Then she made it sound like it was my fault that I wasnt following through with disciplining him. I told her how I take privileges away, send him to his room, ground him etc. and she still said I was letting him manipulate me or he wouldnt still be getting in trouble at school all the time. That he continues his behavior because he knows he can get away with it. I get phone calls from his school everyday and he gets suspended on a regular basis.

His suspensions are for the most ridiculous things. Refusing to do work. Not listening, distrupting class, etc. And every time I follow through with a consequence and I lecture him and nothing. Then next time he goes to school he continues his peculiar behaviors. His classmates think his the bad kid his teacher say he is disruptive.

Stuart wants to know why he was asked to do something. Everything is a debate. He wants everything to be fair. Fairness is extremely important to him. Everyone else following the rules is important to him. He doesnt think about that though when he breaks a rule. When he doesnt think he should do something. He tells you or anyone he doesnt care if it is an authority figure that he doesnt think he should do what he was asked. I did not bring him up this way. My other two sons one with a slight case of aspie and one nt do not have the careless regard for others that he does.

I am consistently told he has no respect for authority and no discipline. He thinks he can do what he wants when he wants to. He sees himself as equal to everyone. He has no concept of people’s feelings or how to behave in social situations. He is always in trouble at recess, lunch, gym, Spanish, and gym. This has been going on since birth. Preschool up until now 3rd grade has been a nightmare and very stressful for both of us. I am homeschooling next year.

He is always picked on and the other students point at him when there is trouble and he feels he gets blamed for everything. He just recently started lying.

The psychologist said that he had been lying to me all along and that is the manipulation part and that he is always trying to get my attention by not listening to people in authority.

I think she is nuts, but how do I tell her that. He is misunderstood and not diagnosed and I know that if everyone understood him the way I do then he would have less confrontations with people. She said he needs to learn how interact with others not others bending to learn how to interact with him.

Isnt that a bunch of crap. I hate society and societal pressures. I believe I am an aspie too. I understand his misconception of the world and his frustrations. He wants everyone to be equal and to think for themselves and no one should have to raise their hand, ask to use the bathroom, do what everyone else is doing, do his school in the order his teacher says, study what is dictated to him to study. He is a little walking professor and I find it awesome. I just wish everyone else did too.

If there is a such thing as normal, I know my son is not normal, I am ok with that. He is helpful, polite, bright, fun to talk to, I love spending time with him. I do believe he needs to learn some basic skills that are socially acceptable. He lacks in this area greatly. He talks a lot. I did not. I was very shy so I did not get into trouble the way he does. But he rambles on and is very confident about everything and not at all shy. He is over confident to the point he doesnt have boundaries. He doesnt know when to stop talking, what is acceptable to say and not to say. I thought it was just his age, but he talks about in-depth things that kids his age dont really care about.

He becomes very angry with adults or children who do not listen to him. He wants everything to go his way and hasnt learn to compromise. He does if I explain to him why in this situation he needs to be flexible and let someone else have a chance. But I have to explain it almost every time.

I just always thought my son was just bright and I didnt mind talking to him when he would question doing something I asked him to do. I knew doing that and sometimes me comprising would lessen his anxiety and wouldnt send him into a tizzy. Now because everyone is telling me my son has a behavior problem and I am responsible and need to fix it. I have been cutting him off and telling him NO, we are not debating this do not say another word just do it. He gives me a mad face and stomps and tries at least a dozen more times to get his point across and I stop him and tell him I dont want to hear it.

He will be defiant at first and refuse to do what I ask and then when he sees that I am not giving in he finally does what I ask. Will any of his bad behavior change by me not listening to him. I dont know. I feel like I am taking his voice away by not letting him get his point across. I feel like the sit down and shut up, do as I say method only hurts our kids and doesnt help them be original thinkers. I am trying this to see if he will do what he is told by authority figures.

The only reason kids are taught that there is an authority is to keep the masses in check as not to create chaos. One teacher does not have the time if every child questioned why they have to do or not do something. Kids should be taught to respect everyone and everything and to think for themselves.

Any other parents feel others do not understand your children like you do? Or that others feel your child has a discipline problem?

Hello and welcome to WrongPlanet I'm pretty much a newbie here myself but there are a lot of experienced people posting here. I'm sure you will get some good advice. My personal thoughts are the behavioral psychologist is either ignorant or doesn't acknowledge AS. Maybe if you took your son for assessment by another professional and if he is diagnosed with AS you will have that information to help you work with the school. Only recently has sensory breaks been written in on my son's IEP and he's needed that all along. Your son's school sounds ridiculously over reactive to me. Diagnosis of my son's AS has helped me recognize the possibility of my own. He is so much like me as a child that I just thought he inherited my personality. I didn't realize my personality was considered to be ASD.(I am not officially diagnosed).Anyway I say arm yourself with information. The schools need to be educated about this. My son's school is really on the ball now and it wasn't that long ago they thought yelling at my son would snap him out of a meltdown. The school system needs to be educated so they can adapt to meet these children's needs.

ladivegas, on the other side of the fence with your son (I'm going to the doctor soon to see if I have AS or Autustim), I think you need to be entirely honest with him at all times. I remember any time my family tried to do something behind my back, I felt like I was getting betrayed and stabbed in the back. If your son has this explosive of a personality at the moment, I think it'll take a lot of the edge off your current situation. He'll feel comforted that he knows your intentions, because I think being in his position he may feel very overwhelmed and on his own. I also grew up in a household where I rarely thought I got honestly out of mom and dad, but I think he would genuinely respond to that. Feeling secure and safe is important to everyone, especially in his position. Just remember what your son FEELS like he's going through because that's what will matter to him. I really hope yours and his situation gets better because that's got to be incredibly stressful for him and you everyday. I'm so glad you see what you love in your son instead of just seeing the problem though I don't know too many parents who think their kids have emotions, so you already look better in my book

listen to your son and do not deny what he is wrong about - it will only make him angrier
acknowledge what little truth there is in what he says, "Yes, the other kids are not following this rule and that is a little unfair towards you."
BUT set limits and rules that he has to follow no matter what. give him two choices, but he must chose between the two.
ask the teachers to make bad consequences for kids who bully him or point to him unfairly.

Some of the behavior you describe in the classroom ISN't appropriate... There are many other kids there and your son isn't the most important one. He sounds disruptive, disrespectful, and ill-mannered.
It's an unreasonable expectation to think that others should understand your son... in all fairness, then you should understand them before you can ask anything of them.

A compassionate do it or else is teaching him a lot about real life. One either does the job or gets fired. Makes the grade or gets left behind. Eats or gets eaten.

I think the psychologist is clueless, and you've spoiled your son. Time to stop.

My son has similar tendancies, he talks non-stop, can be defiant, and is very concerned when other people don't follow the rules, but forgets that he needs to as well. I have found that being very strict and consistant, while communicating with him has helped. think of an iron box, with soft velvet sides. it doesn't help anyone, least of all him, to be leniant, but you can't expect him to listen when no one listens to what he has to say. I try to explain to my son why he needs to do what is asked of him, and I try to listen to what he has to say. I have tried to teach him that there are natural consequences to what he does, and that getting in trouble is entirely his choice. I think I say this single sentance about 50 times a day at least "You can choose to listen, or you can choose (insert consequence)". He has a choice, he knows what will happen when he chooses to listen, and when he chooses to disobey. I think kids naturally feel powerless, especially when they are misunderstood. Giving him a choice, even though he knows something unpleasant will happen, makes him feel like he has some control, which I understand (perhaps mistakenly) is very important to people with AS, and, depending on the day (usually depending on his stress level) he usually chooses the right thing.
On the other hand, his school is awesome. They have a lot of experience and training to work with AS, and communication between them and the parent is really important, and that definately helps

We had a similar experience with a teacher in grade 1 treating our son like a discipline case and implying that his behavioural issues were due to our parenting (or lack there of). This was before we had a dx. Of course we became stricter and more rigid with him in hopes that this would curtail his "bad behaviour" at school. And of course it didn't work, it just increased my sons' anxiety and led to him feeling bad about himself because he simply could not meet the standards set for him. Now that we know about AS, we understand that he was overwhelmed from a sensory perspective, couldn't keep up with all the strings of verbal information and was receiving no social support. He could not improve his behaviour until these issues were addressed. Halfway through grade 1 we moved to a new school. The teacher had a very gentle, kind approach and used lots of visual teaching aids rather than verbal..."magically" his behaviour suddenly greatly improved, not perfect but much closer to the bright, cooperative boy we knew at home. Halfway through grade 2 we received an Aspergers dx, this gave the school even bigger clues as to how best motivate and teach him, and no excuse to ever, ever treat him like a discipline case when he misbehaves.

Now the other side of all that is that he does need firm, consistent boundaries and consequences and a lot of very detailed, specific social teaching...a lot. And we are constantly trying to find the balance between allowing him to be himself, and requiring him to meet certain social/academic standards. The correct balance is often very difficult to find.

I would get a new psych who specializes in AS and can make a diagnosis. I would work with the school to help them provide a healthier learning environment for your son (they should not be allowing bullying, they should not be suspending him -unacceptable!). I would access as many services for him as are available in your area...social skills groups, counselling, OT, speech therapy...whatever you feel he needs. But I would also get serious about teaching your son when it is OK to argue and when he needs to just quietly comply. This is an important lesson, that he needs to learn or he will constantly be getting himself in trouble with teachers, bosses, police etc. He sounds very intelligent, maybe he can help you work out some system or signal for letting him know when he is free to express his opinions and when he should just shut up and get on with things.

I'm in with everyone else. Get a new school (which you have in place, with the planned homeschool) and new psychologist.

AS kids really DO need to argue the case and figure out the logic. I think more harm than good will come of it, long run, by cutting him off on that. It isn't a discipline issue, but a communication one. Once you hear him repeating himself, however, you can finalize the conversation with a simple, "I've heard your point, I understand it, but my position is unchanged and it is time for you to accept that." When he argues THAT, THEN you can get firm.

thank you for all your responses. Its difficult to tell the whole story on what my son has been through and how I parent him and such a few words. I could write a book on what he has done and how I have handled it. I have heard from so many people he is spoiled. However, he may seem that way, but mostly I feel he just lacks the communication skills needed to get his point across and to handle his frustrations.

I always knew he was different but I am just now trying to teach him the skills he needs in a different way then I was before if that makes sense. Maybe the way I was handling him before caused him to be spoiled, if spoiled means he doesnt know how to react to people in most situations. I dont know and I dont care. I only care that he as he grows he learns the appropriate behaviors.

Mostly I just want to hope that he is capable of learning how to behave. Sometimes I wonder. It took most of my twenties and a degree in Communications from U of M to learn how to communicate with others and most of the time I like being alone and I feel antisocial, yet most people wouldnt know that about me because of education I have learned how to fit in.

My son, is the opposite outgoing, but lacks the ability to pick up on social cues. He has to be told.

I totally agree is behave is inappropiate and unfair to other students. That is way I am going to home school. It is not fair and not the teachers job to teach him these skills. Its my job and the only time I have is during the day. I work nights and my husband works days to save on childcare. So, this works best for us. I will do anything for him including being his teacher. I live in Flint, MI. There are absolutley no resources for a child like him who can do the school work but needs help with his behavior.

I am going to have him tested for autism. Only to help understand him and help learn which way learning works best for him so he can be a help to society and not have trouble in his adult years.

Thank you again for your posts it helped to hear the differences in opinion. I hope my posting helps others realize their child is not a bad kid just a misunderstood kid who needs extra help in learning what may come naturally to others.

One on One the teachers love him because he is so engaging. In groups he is a mess.

I plan on putting him in smaller groups during homeschooling and slowly help him learn how to work together with his peers and listen to his authority figures. Hopefully is capable of learning this.

I have two other children who are well behaved. So thats how I know its not all my parenting skills. myspace id is ladivegas

As to the first part quoted, she is right. He needs to learn these skills to function as a individual in the world. One of my biggest peeves is people thinking just because they are different, the world should completely accept that and bow to their demands. Just because a person has AS doesn't mean they automatically get a get-out-of-jail-free card because they "don't pick up on NVC". Its their job to better themselves and learn those NVC signs, and society's job is to give a little leeway till he/she does. If said person shows no signs of bettering themselves in that way, then its up to society to get them to, though sometimes unsavory means ( bullying, unjust rules, etc)

As to the latter part quoted. The authority part of schooling is to provide an environment in which children can learn. Some people underestimate how disruptive 1 child can be. One child can stop a class in its tracks. As for the respect part. Why is it the schools responsibly to do this? Shouldn't this already be done at home? If its not, should the parents be shocked when informed of this? (* Please note I'm not saying this is your situation, I'm merely posing a hypothetical question. *)

IMO your not being manipulated. I think she was flat out wrong when she told you that. You can get a new psych, or try to portray the complete situation to her as it seems she doesn't have it atm. That being said, it does seem like your son may be developing some behavioral patterns that in the long run will make it much harder for him to exist in the real world by himself.

Please don't see this post as attacking your, or your son. I can see that it may look that way, and try as i might i cant seem to get the thoughts in my head to come out in this post in a less hostile way. The post as it is isn't exactly what i wanted to say but i cant seem to get it any clearer than it is at the moment.

First of all I think there are a couple of posts here that are overly harsh. I mean how in the world can you call a child a spoiled brat without even meeting him???

As for the schools responsibility, they have more than what a pp poster stated above.

Yes it is our job to discipline our kids. Yes it is our job to be good parents, but we can't do it alone. That is why schools have something called a Functional Behavior Assessment and after getting the needed information then they can set up a Behavior Intervention Plan (I think thats what a BIP stands for).

This is after careful study of the child's behavior (to learn what the triggers are) they can set up positive things to do for the child so they can help change his behavior. It's part of IDEA and IDEA has to be followed.

Here is a very good link about this.....

http://cecp.air.org/fba/

Now let me explain what our Neuro-Phy explained to me about Aspies and behavior. He said the really smart ones can manipulate and take the Aspie behavior and use it because often times it works. It doesn't mean all the behavior is done on purpose because he does have a disability, but it's a constant balancing act between trying to tease out the Disability from the behavior that they CAN control.

So mom, I would find another Doctor that "gets this part" and get the much needed help you need. This is not your fault. You didn't cause your childs disability, but you then have to realize that you have to retrain yourself when it comes to parenting, because what works for an NT child, won't work for an Aspie child.

Good luck. I'm sorry but I get real mad when parents get blamed all the time. We need help, not judgements.

One thing is for certain, and that is if your son is an aspie, then he is not putting it on to manipulate you. That is not aspie behaviour.

It is important that you do get your son to understand the social conventions, etc, because he needs to learn them in order to live in the world. Perhaps try to get him to understand why the social conventions are there using logic - perhaps explain to him about how they are used to keep order, and thus help people to learn, in really concrete language?

It's vital that your son does learn coping mechanisms and how to live according to the regulations of society as he grows. It doesn't (and shouldn't) need to be at the expense of his own personal beliefs, but so long as he can apply the socially correct behaviours in situations when necessary.

I managed to explain to my nephews that you can sometimes just go along with things, do as others do, but I'm not sure exactly what I said that succeeded in convincing them. I also explained that their parents could be prosecuted for not sending them to school (homeschooling isn't common here, especially not when they were kids) and that is the reason they had to attend. I even went into the details on how this is a bureaucratic culture which requires that everyone read and write and how in the old days very few people attended school (in a much less bureaucratic world). I found I had to go into the history and sociopolitical aspects of 'education', how it's (in some ways) a training camp for your life as a bureaucratic identity and a taxpayer. It's ok to acknowledge that it is an indoctrination process, schooling, because you're confirming what they suspect. Maybe we should get an aspie (not me) to write a 'why you have to go to school' piece, I'm sure it's a common problem.

Then there's also the "I had to do it and I survived", explanation. They do seem understand that sort of thing.

Many aspies cannot see "the big picture", to make up for this they tend to ask lots of questions about specifics. You might wonder why the questions are being asked because the answers are obvious, but it's nearly impossible to place yourself into someone elses shoes who percieves the world differently... and vice-versa, he can't magically see what he is missing.

I don't think your son is manipulating you intentionally and even if he is, it's because it's easier than what he's being asked to do. He needs to keep asking his questions and perhaps eventually he'll get to the point where he needs to ask less.

I do give him choices on a minute by minute bases it seems. and actually your post sounds just like the conversations I have with him. I always tell him he can choose the day he is going to have and he is making his choice.

I took the love and logic courses by Dr. Fay and he is all about kids having choices and consequences.

try to get him to understand that the world is f****d up and that how many times hes right no one is gonna cair an nothing is going to change because of him. let him know you're on his side and you also find alot of things he doenst find fair unfair. make it clear to him that when he messen up people come to you to complain about him and that if this continues they are going to put him in an institute. and for christs sake use less text when posting.