Aspie Mom desperate for advice from other Aspie parents

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I am a single mom w/ Asperger's Syndrome. I co-parent with my mom who is NT. My eldest daughter is 11 years old and has PDD-NOS, ADHD, and comprehension LDs. My youngest daughter is 9 years old and NT. I really need some advice because I am at my wit's end.

My eldest argues about EVERYTHING. I cannot ask her to do something or not do something without her either putting me off or arguing about it and I end up yelling. When I give her a choice between obedience or getting grounded she yells, argues, and still won't comply. When I ground her she screams, cries, slams doors, etc... Often she will beg for one more chance, claiming I "always" (I HATE that word) give her another chance, and my mom tells me I am harder on her than on my youngest and don't give her any breaks which really confuses me because according to my daughter herself I "always" give her chances.

Apparently (although she hasn't told me this) my youngest is afraid to do anything wrong because I yell, and my mom thinks this is detrimental to her. This is hard for me to understand because isn't the whole point of disciplining children to make them want to avoid the consequences of bad behavior and therefore not engage in bad behavior?

My mom says I yell at my kids too much and give them too harsh or too long of punishments and I need to find some other way to parent, but I am at a loss. I am of the opinion that by giving them long and severe punishments the first time, they will be less likely to re-offend. Is this wrong?

I also do not see how I can not yell when my child won't stop arguing and will not do what is required of her. My mom says she does not obey me because I yell, but I wouldn't yell if she would obey me. My mom also says I talk "meanly" to my kids, especially my eldest, but I don't see how I do. I talk authoritatively to them when telling them to do something, but that isn't being mean, but apparently my mom disagrees, she says my "tone" is not nice.

She also tells me that I get onto them too much but do not praise them enough, but a while ago when I told her that all she ever does is see the negative things I do and not the positive, she told me people shouldn't get praised for things that are expected of them (like remembering to do the dishes without being reminded). So why should I praise my kids for doing a good job on their chores? Isn't it expected that they SHOULD do a good job? This is really confusing for me...

I really need some advice from other Aspie parents on how you deal effectively with your kids. If you have defiant kids with higher functioning Autistic issues and/or ADHD then your comments would be a bonus. Please, please, please help! Thank you in advance.

My kids are pretty young still, but for what it's worth, we do try to use praise more than censure. I'm about 95% praise; my wife is about half praise and half censure. I think your mom's advice to use more praise is probably good advice; the fact that she doesn't follow her own advice doesn't mean the advice is bad, it just means the way she interacts with you doesn't live up to her own ideas. I wouldn't bring that up with her, though; if she's neurotypical she'll just take it the wrong way.

I'd suggest you pay less attention to the words your elder daughter is saying. She's just using argument as a way to avoid doing what needs to be done - plus there may be an element of adolescent rebellion there too. If she asks questions, sure, answer them, but once she starts arguing, say, "I don't care, do it". I'd suggest making any punishments commensurate with the infractions.

If your younger daughter is well behaved, I think that's evidence that you're doing right by her.

I don't know if I'm NT or AS, but I'm not sure your problem has as much to do your AS as your daughter's. Many of us have the experience that aspie kids will follow your requests nearly 100% of the time if (a) you give some leeway on when and how so they can finish this moments thought and obsession and (b) you have taken the time to sell them on the logic behind the request. Works pretty well with some NT kids, too, actually.

Neither of which involves yelling or strong consequences.

As for arguing ... Perhaps listening will help. My kids get one go at challenging me, and they've learned to make their case well. It took some practice, but I feel it was worth the investment. If I listen and haven't changed my mind, I simply say that I've heard them, but they still need to do X. Often they actually have a good reason for being upset at the request at that moment in time.

On the punishment questions, long and severe the first time is generally not recommended. That will feel unfair to the kids and if kids feel your consequences are unfair they will react poorly to all efforts to discipline. Basically, it backfires. Discipline should be about teaching, not punishing. Consequences are there to reinforce the lesson, not punish.

On the tone of voice issue, consider asking your kids how it comes across to them and how it makes them feel. Could be an interesting conversation.

And your mother ... Even if she's right, it would make me uncomfortable to be getting that feedback. Are you soliciting it or is she giving it? Are the kids aware of the disagreement? Just wondering how that dynamic may be affecting the situation.

I think if the situation is an agreement to co-parent, then the feedback is fair, if you have agreed this is a shared responsibility.

Yelling is harmful for children, especially in excess or as a matter of habit. Yelling at an aspie can be far more harmful than yelling at a typical child. My son is extremely sensitive to yelling.

The goal of discipline is not really as you described it. It is about teaching. It sounds like you and your daughter may have fallen into a cycle of crime and punishment, which many typical families do as well. The goal of discipline is really to teach children how to make their own best choices, as often as possible. For an aspie, this often means they really need to understand the WHY of the rules they are expected to follow.

I think you need to give careful consideration to what your mom is saying, and maybe ask yourself some questions. For example, are there things your daughter is doing that you could back off the discipline for, and just let her do - are any of them negotiable? Does she really understand the "why" of the rules she is breaking? Are there too many rules? Are your expectations for her behaviour resonable for her age, her special needs, etc? Why are you yelling so much, and what can you do to stop the yelling? Would you both benefit from seeing a counsellor?

Hope things settle down for you - it sounds very stressful.

Maybe a communication book could help.

You can all write your feelings in the book, yourself included and then you can see where each other is coming from. You can put in critisim's and positives.



Just a thought.

Everyone, thank you for your replies so far.

DW, You said:

She is not aspie, she has PDD-NOS and ADHD and she doesn't fit into that pattern of explain it logically and she'll do it. If she did I wouldn't have to fight her. For example: I tell her to log out of the computer and take a shower and she says "After this song PLEASE????" I say "Ok, after this song log out and get in the shower because you need to wash your hair tonight." (She has to take a shower to wash her hair because it is fairly long and if she rinses it in her bath water it is greasy when it dries and she won't rinse it under the faucet) Five minutes later she is still on the computer and I say "Why haven't you logged out and gotten in the shower? That song wasn't over 5 minutes long." So she says "After this song." and the cycle continues unless I get loud. Then when she does go into the bathroom she draws a bath instead of taking a shower and after arguing more about wanting a bath and not a shower she lets the bath water out and takes a shower, wasting tons of water and electricity.

Another example is dental flossing and brushing her teeth (she has full braces top and bottom). She insists she can do it herself but she doesn't do it. She will brush if reminded but won't dental floss. Her brushing is horrible and she leaves stuff on her gumline but won't correct it no matter how many times I remind her. My mom and I both explain how bad it is for her teeth to not take care of them, especially with braces. Finally, I tell her that I'm going to do it for her and a battle ensues.

A third example is something that happened this morning. She wanted to borrow her sister's coat, but her sister wanted to wear it. I asked her nicely to take it off and offered her my own coat which is similar. She went into a tirade about how her sister was wearing a sweater and didn't need a coat and how she had it on first. I told her I didn't care if she had it on first or that her sister had let her borrow it before, her sister wanted to wear it and it was hers. I told her to take it off and she continued to argue. I then gave her to the count of three or she would be grounded. She then started putting her lunch in her backpack, disregarding what I had just said. I started counting and she started yelling that she was putting her lunch in her backpack. I yelled back that I didn't care and she needed to stop and take off the coat like I asked. She still continued to disobey, and needless to say she got grounded.

As you can probably see from my examples, logic is not relevant to her. If she does not want to do it she fights it every step of the way. The kind of behavior that I have given examples of is what is causing most of the conflict. That and the "Why?". "Go wipe up the bathroom floor." (after her shower) "Why me?", "Go do your dishes." "Why right now?", "Go put your clean clothes away." "Why? I just got home." etc... etc... etc...

If she is in the middle of a game that she needs to find a save point in or a conversation w/ a friend from school online I usually give her a few minutes to wrap it up, but she abuses this by passing by the save point or starting a new conversation. Her favorite excuse is "I forgot". Often I will ask her to do something and she will turn around and get food out of the fridge and when I say "Why aren't you doing what I asked?" she says "I'm eating." even though she wasn't eating when I asked her to do it.

Caitlin, you posted these questions:


Here is my answer:
Iit is not like we expect the kids to do an awful lot. We do a round-robin type of chores and dishes, each person has a different room of the house each week to tidy up and dishes are done twice a day with the kids doing them in the evenings about twice a week each. Other than that they are expected to pick up after themselves, put their clean clothes away, do their homework, and attend to their daily hygiene (although reminders are usually necessary). They are given plenty of free time to play after school and the rules are not excessive. When outside they are expected to stay together, stay within eyesight of our driveway and within earshot of our holler, and check in frequently. When on the computer they are not to chat with strangers or access inappropriate websites. Otherwise they are expected to not physically harm each other. These are really the only daily rules they have besides doing what is expected of them (see list above). She is 11 years old and high functioning, so I do not see a problem with expecting her to do what we already expect of her. And yes, she understands the "why", she just doesn't care because she doesn't want to do it. As for why I yell... she won't stop arguing and do as she's told unless I yell louder than she does and I can't just give in and let her get away with disobedience and not doing her chores simply because I don't want to deal with confrontation. I have no idea what I can do to stop the yelling. I wouldn't need to yell if she didn't argue about pretty much everything and put off everything I ask her to do, but yelling is the only way I have found to get her to do anything. I am just as sick of yelling as everyone is of hearing it, but nothing else has worked. That is why I am here... to get input and advice from others in similar situations.

Ok, this post is long enough I think. I hope this helps clarify the situation somewhat so you guys have a better idea of what I'm asking. I really need a way to deal with this that doesn't include yelling or giving up and letting her have her way, because that seems like the only 2 options from where I stand.

Thanks for those details, they do help to give a clearer picture. I would agree based on your description that she is not being expected to do too much. But based on your examples, I think there are some key strategies you could use to set her up for success. I think you may be expecting her to do too much of it on her own accord, and at her age and temperament, she may need you to manage the situations more for her, so she is guided directly into doing the right thing.

Others may disagree, but the advice I would give you in terms of what works to avoid yelling at my son in my house, is this:

For the example you gave where she is on the computer and then has a bath instead of a shower, I would recommend a couple of alternative approaches: a) standing beside her until her song is over and then watch her log out and close it; or b) tell her if she doesn't log out when the song is over, she won't have access to the computer for the rest of the day. Maybe try the first way for a while so she gets used to closing the computer when she's done, then move on to the one where you expect her to do it herself, with a clear consequence if she doesn't. If you get to that point, and she doesn't do it, and then she tries to argue with you for imposing the consequence, I would simply refuse to engage. Make a calm statement that she knew this was the consequence, and that you will not be responding to any arguments.

For the bath issue, I would turn the shower on for her and make sure she gets in. With autism in the mix, I would totally let go of ALL energy and water consumption issues. It's just one of those things you can't afford to get stressed out about.

For dental flossing, that may be a sensory issue. It is for my son. It HURTS him to floss. You may need to make an agreement with her (during a calm time) that you will gently floss for her every night, and in return for her managing to get through that, she can have some sort of reward.

Your third example is somethiing that I personally think is largely a typical girl/sibling situation. Her PPD-NOS likely contributes to how difficult it is for her to let go of the idea that she was going to borrow the coat, but there are plenty of typical girls who act that way too. I think you did the right thing - all the way up to yelling. There's just no purpose in yelling. Tell her calmly that you understand how much she wants to wear it (notice how different that message is than "I don't care" - it can really change the tone of a situation), tell her calmly what the consequence will be (make sure it's something that actually matters to her), maybe even calmly remind her that she will regret this decision later, and that you are giving her a chance to make the right choice now. Then follow through - but don't yell, and don't engage in an escalating argument.

The key here is really your own ability to control your own emotional reactions. None of us can do it perfectly all the time. But the goal is to do it the vast majority of the time.

My son is like your elder daughter, though he is a little younger. I have tried everything except spanking (I'm quite opposed to that). I have tried time-outs and taking away toys as punishments. I have promised the moon and stars in return for acceptable behavior. I give second and third "chances". I explain the purpose of rules. I listen to his feedback so he doesn't feel voiceless. Still, he pretty much does as he likes. It is extremely mentally and emotionally exhausting.
I have come to the point where I just think this is who he is. Willful, stubborn, unable to be influenced by either punishment or reward. Utterly unflappable. On the plus side, he is extremely intelligent and actually a very nice person. He's just a person who is going to do what he wants, regardless of the consequences.
I hope when he is grown he decides he wants to go to college, because heaven help us if he decides he wants to be a bank robber.

I think Caitlin had some really good suggestions and a good approach.

And ... I'm not convinced your daughter can't be appealed to by logic. The problem may be that are barriers to it.

She may not be persuaded by your logic, for example, or at least not enough to change her perception of what she wants and needs at that moment in time (ever read our PPR board? Logic is not an absolute thing).

With the songs, there may a level of addictive behavior involved, or an issue of self control ("I just saw what the next song is and oh my I love that song just have to hear it").

And the bath v shower and flossing issues most probably have a huge sensory component you haven't mitigated yet.

The coat thing ... Once her mind is set, it is set, so you need to prevent the problem before she has ever put the coat on, and that may start when her first choice of outfit is made (she may already have a vision that this shirt and pair of pants requires that coat).

Identify the areas of issue and break them down with her sometime when she is calm and happy, and not focused elsewhere. Find out what she sees as barriers in the situations. Ask questions, listen, don't challenge. This is detective work.

PDD-NOS is still an ASD, and the similarities are more than the differences. But she is also a unique individual, and that always keeps things interesting.

Good point about the bath/shower being a potential sensory issue - my son LOVES baths for the sensory input which is very calming for him. If your daughter loves baths, but needs to shower to wash her hair, there are lots of options to make the situation work. She could take a bath followed by a shower (again, FORGET the water consumption issues and be grateful she is TWICE as clean), or she could take a bath, shampoo her hair, and then rinse it under the fresh tap water while the tub drains, or you could fit your shower with a manual shower head so she could have a bath, then just stand in the shower to wash her hair (where she controls where the water goes).

I'm not so sure it's an emotional reaction on te original poster's part that's at issue here. Apparently yelling is what works to get her daughter to quit arguing. I have the same problem with my mother, and yelling is about the only way I can end what's otherwise an endless repetitious series of arguments when that happens. Well, or hang up on her, which makes her much more upset than the yelling does. The yelling may be effective because the nonaspie thinks it is an emotional reaction, but it's actually a logically selected response because we don't know any other method of achieving the goal.

I suspect that neurotypicals take care of this with the whole "between the lines communication" thing - facial expressions or some subtle use of wording or tone of voice - but that method isn't available to us aspies, and it may happen at a subconscious level even in neurotypicals.

Also, while PDD-NOS is ASD - autism spectrum disorder - it's not AS, Asperger's Syndrome. Let's not assume that the daughter behaves as if she has Asperger's, especially when the original poster has explicity stated that she doesn't behave that way.

I do agree with most of the suggestions in your posts.

Yelling is not a positive form of communication. It is a sign of anger and an out-of-control emotional response. That's pretty much a scientific fact, in terms of the biological realities of what happens in a human body when we yell or are yelled at.

I guess it depends on your definition of "works", because to me, this is clearly NOT working for her or her daughter. She is unhappy, her daughter sounds unhappy, the grandmother is unhappy. And if her daughter grows up in a house where yelling is the way people communicate when they are upset or frustrated, then she will be more likely to use that method herself.

What will she do when she becomes angry or frustrated at work as an adult? In the grocery store when someone bumps into her? In the parking lot when someone takes her spot? Yelling is most certainly not going to work in those cases.

The mother, and grandmother if they are coparenting, need to provide this girl with the tools and techniques - and the stable family life - she needs in order to mature gradually and effectively into a capable, happy person who knows how to contol her reactions when other people do things she doesn't like. Yelling is just simply not going to get her there.

I both agree and disagree with Caitlin.

I agree that yelling should be avoided whenever possible.
However, if that's the only thing that works, then so be it.
I also disagree that yelling=upset. I sometimes yell because my son doesn't think I'm serious otherwise. I have to make a big show, like a gorilla thumping its chest, when inside I don't feel like yelling at all. I'd just rather yell once than ask nicely 20+ times, put him in timeout, ask again, take away toys, ask again, and THEN yell. I don't have time for that scene to play out a hundred times a day.

mangamaniac_animaaddict, I'd just like to expand on my previous advice with some specific suggestions.

The issue here is that she has learned that asking for a delay until after "this song" gets her not a one song delay, but a likely multisong delay. When you say "Ok, after this song log out and get in the shower because you need to wash your hair tonight", she hears the part she wants to hear, which is just the first word, "Ok". The rest is just empty noise because she knows it's not going to be enforced. You need to enforce it.

Standing over her for the one song, as Caitlin suggests, is one possibility. If you do come back, though, don't ask "why haven't you logged out and gotten in the shower". You don't need the answer to that question.

Instead, just say, "your song is up." Then without waiting for a response, turn off the radio. If she still doesn't come, turn off her monitor, and if that doesn't work or if the monitor doesn't have a separate switch, turn off her computer. Yes, this will result in a huge argument. The first time. Maybe the second. However, she will quickly learn that when you say "one song", you mean "one song". She won't necessarily stop after the one song, but she'll start getting out of there when you show up after the 5 minutes.


As the others said, you may just have to live with this one. Alternatively, go to the bathroom with her, and remind her "shower, not bath". If she objects, say, "you can have a bath after you shower and wash your hair". Then follow through by allowing her the bath. It's important to follow through on your promises as well as your threats.


To be honest, I don't understand how one can floss with braces. Maybe modern braces are different from the ones I had 40 years ago.

With respect to the gumline, make sure she has soft toothbrushes, or the kind that have both soft and medium bristles, so it will be comfortable on her gums.


I honestly don't see a better way of handling that one. Did she ask permission from her sister before putting the coat on in the first place? That might be what she needs to learn.


I think on some of these, it would be worthwhile to give her a quick answer. "Why me?" - "Because it's your shower that made the bathroom floor wet". It takes three seconds to say, so you can afford to say it every time it's asked.

I do think it might be nice to give her 5 or 10 minutes to unwind after getting home. However, I also realize that gives her an opportunity to get involved in something she won't be able to pull away from. You know her better than I do on that.


This is another example of dealing with computer use. Again, don't be afraid to turn off the game or whatever if she's passed the point where she promised to stop. She may have honestly forgotten, but then she needs to learn to remember when she makes a promise.


As mentioned above, don't ask her questions when the answer doesn't matter. I know it's a normal english idiom, but when dealing with children it's better to get in the habit of figuring out what you want her to do, and just telling her to do it, instead.

I actually agree with that too.


Exactly. All the reasons in the world why yelling is bad don't help if there's no alternative.

Again, thanks for all your replies.

psychohist, you said:

This is one instance where I can use an absolute word... I NEVER go back on my promises, and other than giving "chances" I do not go back on my threats either.

As for standing over her, that will cause a fight in and of itself. As for turning it off for her, I really don't want to chase her around the house while she has a laptop or DS and end up with a broken laptop or DS because she often bolts as soon as she realizes what I'm doing. If I do it quick enough then I still have to deal with the meltdown that ensues.

As for flossing with braces, Oral-B makes a type of floss that is stiff on one end to help get it to thread under the wire, spongy middle to clean around the brackets, and regular floss at the other end to floss between the teeth.

We do give her answers most of the time, but it really gets old to hear a whiny "Why?" all the time.

YippySkippy, that is a really good description of how my daughter is, your son is very much like her I think. The thing is that I refuse to let her win, she will not win against authority as an adult, why should I foster that expectation now? In my daughter's case, she has no motivation to learn and rewards for good grades have never worked, so I despair of her going to college. As for yelling, that is how it starts out with me... showing that I'm serious. But after a few minutes of arguing I'm really upset and just want her to stop fighting me. That is exactly how I feel... I would rather yell than spend 2 hours trying to convince her since nothing motivates her... Threat of punishment does no good, promise of reward does no good. All she cares about is "I don't wanna do it". I take away things she likes, and I give her the option to make the right choice generally "You have to the count of 3 to do as I ask or you have lost the computer for a week/month" and this is after I have explained WHY she needs to do it, given her time to finish what she's doing, etc... and am just sick of her putting me off. I have tried the reward thing too like "If you remember to put on deodorant for a whole week you will get a reward" She doesn't care.

Caitlin you said:


I only wish she was twice as clean. Sometimes we have to make her get back in and wash the rest of her body, after a long and drawn out battle of course. I know you'll probably suggest that we stay in there and monitor her, but that doesn't work either since she insists she doesn't need us in there and won't do anything until we leave. She refuses to rinse her hair under the faucet, otherwise I'd let her do it that way. We are considering getting a handheld shower head, not just for her though that would be a bonus as long as she didn't ruin our floor since she doesn't always pay attention to what she is doing and manages to drown our bathroom when taking a normal shower.

Also, as for the flossing... she doesn't care about rewards.

DW you said:


This is pretty much right, nothing we can say will change what she wants (not needs) at that moment. Like I said, threats of punishment and promises of rewards do absolutely no good with her. It is only after I have laid down punishment that she wants to do what I ask. Like how I told her if she took a bath when I told her to take a shower she'd be grounded from TV for a week and she did it anyway. I walked into the bathroom and simply said "You are grounded from the TV for a week." She then started throwing a fit, crying and screaming, asking for another chance and starting to let the water out of the tub. Until the punishment is actually laid down and she has nothing to gain or lose by cooperation she refuses to cooperate, but as soon as she is in trouble she wants to mitigate it by doing what I asked her to do to begin with.