lying and stealing

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Our 20 year old son came back to live with us after living on his own for two years. He was not able to maintain on his own and his life was miserable. Since he has returned, he has lied to us many times and he has been stealing food. The lies have been about things that only hurt himself, like how many college credits he has, or if he got a receipt for something he bought. He does not need to steal food from us because we have plenty of food to eat, he only needs to ask. He was stealing snack food to eat in his room. The snack foods were for lunches for himself and the other kids. Now we are locking the snack foods. We might have to lock the freezer too. Lying and stealing are not new behaviors. He actually has been doing this for years. Usually it's because he doesn't want to get into trouble. We have told him many, many times that he gets into more trouble when he lies. Now that he's an adult, we have fined him money for stealing. He was getting $20 a week in "fun" money, that he could spend however he wanted. Now he has to pay us for what he has taken in food. We have told him that we cannot trust him and he has to leave the house when we do unless someone else is home to watch him. We have told him that he is setting a bad example for the younger children (ages 10, 7 and 6). He is always apologetic, cries often says he doesn't know why he does this. Any ideas from other parents. We don't want to "kick him out". We realize he has a disability and cannot really live on his own. Our next thought was maybe have him sleep in a shelter for one or two nights. Just to see how life would be without anything.

I would just kick him out. Even though he has AS, he still has to suffer the consequence. If he lies and steals, he gets evicted and too bad so sad. If he has no where to go, he should stop lying and stealing and kick him out to show him how serious you were. Then give him one more chance when he begs to come home after being homeless for a few days and if he lies or steals again, he is gone for good.

I don't know how one can "steal" food from one's parents. I mean my kids eat stuff I would prefer they didn't all the time, it's not "stealing" it's annoying! I would not kick him out, I would just buy enough snack food. I would also enlist his help in shopping for and putting away said snack food.

With respect to the other stuff he's lying about - he will figure out how it hurts himself in the long run, so I wouln't make a big deal out of it unless it is actually relevant to health, safety, etc. Who really cares how many credits he has? If it's about what other's will think ifg they find out, let him deal with those consequnces. that leaves the lesson learned by the experience rather than the parental nagging. (I'm not saying you nag, rather I think that's how we are often perceived by our older kids) It sounds like he's insecure and ashamed and thats why he's lying.

What are you afraid he'll do when you're not home? It sounds like he's renting a room instead of your child. I don't know how well my kids would do with that.

You may not be able to use this kid as your other kids' model. They may need to learn that he has challenges that they dont have, My younger son was in a endless meltdown when I was holding him to the standards of his NT brother. He could never quite measure up. Once, I relaxed and found a system that worked for him (rather than his brother) life got infanitely better.

my SO lies to me, frequently, and about really ridiculous stuff. it took me a while to realize that he lies to me because it is the fastest way to make me go away and stop talking to him. he rationalizes that if he tells me what he thinks i want to hear, even if its not the truth, the conversation is over and he can go on with what he was doing. he even does this when he doesnt really mean to lie, its just an auto reaction for him to avoid talking to people.

you seem to be holding him to two standards. one standard, for adults, means he has to repay money for stealing. the other standard, for kids, means he has to ask you before he can eat something. you even seem to still view him as a child when you say the snacks are "for himself and the other kids." the transition to adulthood can be very difficult for asd kids, and getting mixed signals can make it harder.

for the snack foods, maybe you should separate out his from those for the children. lock theirs away so he cannot access it, but put his out where he can get to it, maybe even let him keep it in his room. then when his is gone, its gone and he gets no more until the next shopping trip. that way it gives him the adult ability to decide for himself when to eat it, and also the adult responsibility to control his consumption to make it last.

If you kick him out, he may never understand that you did it 'for his own good'. Seeing the big picture is not something we do very well. I'm not saying necessarily that you shouldn't do it, but when you're dealing with someone who has AS and is obviously depressed, then you might not get the result you want. In my case, when I was in his situation, I may well have starved to death in the street just to spite my mother (who didn't kick me out, but she almost did).

You say his lies and stealing only hurts himself, but it's obvious (to me, anyways) that he feels like he cannot speak honestly with you, that you'll only give him grief if he opens up about what he's done or if he wants a bag of chips to watch TV with. In any event, he DOES need a purpose in life, something to work towards or work on, a reason to wake up in the morning. If you can't help him find it, find someone who can.

I remember a conversation on this forum where it came out from many of our AS adults that a lesson they absorbed in their pre-teen and early adult years was that the world was a little confused when it comes to lying. Basically, what they observed was everyone else lying all the time, and it seeming to only be wrong when they did it. The social rule they feel they have observed was to pretend to value truth, but lie anyway. Think about how all those social niceties we teach our kids, about saying something nice even if you don't feel something nice, plays out in the mind of a very, very literal child.

Between that and a need to be self-protective in a confusing world, I can see how lying could become almost habitual.

I think the answer is to deconstruct the process. To set the social rules and parameters together using cold, hard logic that your son actually buys into. To change the language of your conversations to fit the literal thinking he needs.

I think it is really tough to clear it up when you've got a twenty year old, but I would still try.

It's a shame that tangled webs don't always crop up at the right time to teach their lessons about lying. My son got himself into one back in fourth grade over something silly, and it showed him exactly what I'd been telling him all along: how lying usually ends up in a tangled web that is hard to get out of. It is something he's never forgotten. He saw the logic of why you shouldn't lie, and he integrated that.

Beyond that, I'm not one for handing cold lessons to people we love, unless there is reason to believe that is the only thing they can respond to. I think your son is confused, and being harsh would just confuse him more.

Not even if you explain it to him? Like tell him if he keeps on lying and stealing, you will kick him out of your home?

My mom once threatened to send me away when I kept being violent and I stopped it because I didn't want to be sent away.

New idea to add to my post above: I am wondering if this type of nearly reflexive behavior could be effectively dealt with through cognitive behavior therapy, or maybe an adult version of ABA. There are adults who have posted on these boards about both, and how much they feel the therapies helped them. Some people rebel against the idea, but others found it very effective. I think it is worth looking into because, as you noted, these patterns end up being self destructive.

I think it depends on how much control you have over your bad habits. I've read from a lot of people how they don't feel capable of stopping their own negative behaviors. In which case all a threat does is lose more trust.

An extreme threat requires that you KNOW the person could comply with enough incentive.

And ... Never make a threat you aren't willing to follow through on. Off-spring get their parent's number real fast on that one. And it is so devastating when you finally do follow through, because to them it's like that came out of left field; in their world, mommy never means it, so actually following through takes on the nature of being arbitrary. Violation parenting golden rule number one: consistency.

I would never deny my adult child shelter unless he was literally putting us in danger, so it isn't a threat I could make. The op may be different.

Thanks for the responses from everyone. To azurecrayon: I like the idea of having his own snack foods. That's something we could try and then when it's gone it's gone. It has been difficult transitioning him into adulthood. We do still treat him like a child sometimes, telling him to get his chores done correctly, clean his room, etc. How do you have an adult with AS follow through on their responsibilities? That's one reason why he lies..so we are not disappointed in him. I see that. He grew up with lists of things to do, which helped. Do we go back to that? Is that something he will need always? He wants to live in an apartment again some day, so we are working on gaining independence. If we just let him do what he wants, he'd be on the computer, video games or TV all day. He does rent a room and he is our adult son. Part of his rent includes food, so the food is part his, however, he takes more than his share.
Kailuamom- you are right, we really cannot use him as a role model for the younger kids, however, they do look up to him, especially our 6 year old son. They also are aware he has a disability, and they don't really understand it yet. We have always held our AS son to the same standards as the other children. Actually he has done well because of that, we believe...mostly.
DW_a_mom- I guess he does not really value truth yet and has not learned the strong life lesson that he will remember forever. Yet! Do you have an idea of a script I might use to change the language for him to get it? Telling the truth pays. You know, he loves metaphors, similes and idioms. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks again. Keep the ideas coming.

Make sure that this is true. If you ask him a hard question and he gives you an answer you don't like - YOU MUST SAY - I am so impressed that you shared that with me, it must have been really hard for you. DO NOT GIVE HIM A HARD TIME when telling the truth, ever.

Sigh ... yeah; we have similar problems with our 17yo ASD son. eg last week I prepared dinner on four plates for the family the night before, and when I looked in the fridge our son had taken the sausages off all of the plates, and left the rest.

I think it is because his brain does not allow him to properly comprehend the world. He cannot really work out cause and effect, see how things fit together. He wants some food he likes or a snack or whatever now, and so just gets it.

As a somewhat incidental matter, this lack of ability to defer gratification is one of the key predictors for success. From recollection of my psychology courses at university kids were offered one chocolate bar now or two in ten minutes; those unable to defer their gratification tended to be less successful in later life.

Maybe this lack of understanding of the world relates to the point made by DW_a_mom about the relative complexity of the issue of lying. When one thinks about it, this is a rather more complex issue. Nearly everyone "lies" - white lies or whatever, as much of that is necessary for normal politeness and the smoother functioning of relationships. But there is a difference easily understood by a NT between that sort of "lying" and eg blatantly denying some wrong one has done. But does our son really grasp these "nuances", obvious as they may seem to me? Or, if he does grasp them, does he think that lying about this is actually a workable strategy (given he obviously gets away with it some of the time), and a way to avoid conflict, without realising this is really not a workable strategy at all and will just lead to greater conflict and difficulties down the track?

Yesterday when I was talking to our son he made a comment like, "I believe so". I asked him "either you know or you don't know". We talked about being certain of things, if you were certain. He said that when he says he is 100% sure people tell him he can't be 100% sure. He says there are no absolutes except death, God and taxes. I told him that when you talk with uncertainty like that others think you have low self esteem and you are often not believed, become incredible and sadly enough not trusted. He's so often fearful of others not liking him that he says what others want to hear. That's where he gets into trouble for lying.
Hoegaandit...Was there a consequence for your son's behavior? I get what you are saying about his brain does not allow him to properly comprehend the world. We had a discussion about hygiene yesterday. It's just not important to him. He had learned to take the steps of showering, deodorant, brushing his teeth, etc, so he's not too bad, but he doesn't care about wearing wrinkled clothes with a stain or holes. He doesn't get the social world and how others perceive him. He feels like it's judgement. In a sense it is, but, it's there is also a social norm in the world and unfortunately, when he goes to school, work, even the store, there should be some decency to your attire. (We were going to visit with my 99 year old grandmother and his shirt had a stain on it and then another one had holes in it.)
I think when our son sneaks food in his room, he feels like snacking and does not think about anything else but that need for the moment. Instant gratification thing.

aspiesmom11 - there wasn't a consequence (from our son sneaking the sausages off everyone's dinner plates in the fridge). I suppose a lot of it is being tired at endlessly telling our son something, but him not taking it in. You are right though, if your implication was that there should have been a consequence. I understand that behavioral consequences can work quite well with ASD children. Part of the problem in our household may be that his schizophrenic mom is his primary caregiver and she is as a consequence of her illness inconsistent at times; our son also does not seem to respect her as much as he should. With our son's failure in the academic system at school this year I am going to have to take on a greater role.

(As a side issue respectfully I disagree fully with your assertion that your son needs to state that things are certain. As Socrates said he was only wiser than other men because he knew how little he knew).

Anyway, let's try and love and support our ASD kids and get them through these difficulties.

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ITEM 1:
Consider that he simply doesnt follow through to find a reason why what you are asking is really so important.

Sure my shirt has a hole in it - it still covers all my naughty bits and keeps me pretty warm.
Meanwhile you're thinking: yeah but it makes you look like a bum. You tell him this.
What do I care if I look like a bum? I'm just going to the store. Besides Fred wears torn jeans.

You need to figure out - or ask him to figure out - a reason as to why you think he shouldnt wear torn clothes: If you go into the store like that, they'll read your clothes and think you might be a theif. They might follow you around suspiciously.

O.o that's not a good thing. Maybe I should dress better and not chance embarassment.

HE doesnt abstract all the images people will have of him / nonliteral communication.
YOU do. You need to learn to think like him. In this instance and in others. Then lead him to see what you know inherently (people look at you funny in rags)...

Otherwise you'll NEVER get your point across.

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ITEM 2:

ie - It's food. It can be replaced. If it couldn't be, they'd tell me beforehand.
learn: He doesnt comprehend it as stealing (neither do I to be honest - i suggest you realize that the word stealing has negative intent behind it). Calling it stealing isn't going to affect him - because he prolly knows the correct definition of stealing and that makes it easy for him to say "my parents don't get me" or "gawd what a stupid arguement they make"

Correct response -->
tell him: It's food. We expect it to be there when we look. We spent TIME and money on it.
teach him: dont make him PAY for it - Make him walk to the store and replace it. Let him know it doesn't appear magically, but requires an effort AND TIME (always a more important concept to me than money) as well as dealing with all the stresses of a grocery store and lineups and people... to replace that quartet of pudding he inhaled last night.

Sorry but to me it seems this is being handled all wrong. Try looking at it my way. See if it helps.

That's likely correct. He is lying about things he thinks you care about and will be upset with him over. Maybe you actually do care about these things and....maybe you shouldn't.

Parents get upset with their children over things such as not cleaning their room, or not doing their homework, not because there is anything inherently wrong with not doing it, but because they are trying to teach them life skills and enforce habits that will benefit them as adults. But what about when the child becomes an adult? It's no longer the job of the parent to instill these things in the adult child. In fact, in most instances, to attempt to do so would be futile. When the child becomes an adult, if they choose not to clean their room, or do their school work, or take x number of credits, that is their choice. The role of the parent should no longer be as an enforcer, but an advisor. In other words, you can say "I think it might be better if..." but it is no longer appropriate to view the issue as something that needs to be punished or corrected.

When adult children start to realize their parents aren't getting on their case about their (usually poor) decisions in life, they frequently become a lot more open about discussing issues.



Concerning stealing the food, your son is not stupid. He knows what he is doing, he doesn't care about the example it sets, and he does it for the same reason husbands don't put the toilet seat down after their wives' repeated requests, and people put empty cartons back in the refrigerator to the annoyance of other household members. It's more trouble for him to change his ways than not. He cries when you talk to him on the issue because forcing him to change his ways stresses him and you are bothering him about it.

My questions are, if there is plenty of food and he can have what he wants if he asks, then why does he have to ask?

If the food is for something else, then why do you give it to him when he asks?

If you are going to be feeding him then he should be able to eat what he wants, when he wants unless you have set something aside specifically for something else. If you absolutely must know and approve of who takes what from the kitchen and when, then perhaps it would be best if he simply bought his own food and kept it in his room. You can get him a mini-fridge to help accommodate this.

I really think the latter would be better as it's a step towards being independent.



When he lived on his own, was he really living on his own or was he living more like a kid at summer camp who's parents would come to the rescue at the slightest little thing?

I would not assume he can't live on his own, he may have just been too young to move out at 18 and ill prepared. It's fine to have him back at home for the moment but he's not back at home as a child, he's back at home as an adult and you are treating him like a child, so he's going to act like one, and that's not fine.